URGENT-CA-PHS Shelter (Bay Area)

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Almost Inbred

Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:14 am

Is ´schmoopy´ a real word? It should be, if it isn´t. Very descriptive.

Well, I misread what you said, but the point still stands. Assuming she met every single criteria Josephine put forth, it still doesn´t mean that the breeding industry is exonerated.

I´m also a sick of that tired, old, "it´s my right" argument. It just doesn´t wash, and it´s played out. Sure, under the freedoms and laws of our government, breeders have every right in the world to breed. You also have the right to join the KKK and shout ´Death to the Jews!´ from your front porch. But just because you have a right to do something doesn´t mean you are right in doing it.

However, the real beauty in all of these rights that we possess is that those who disagree have an equal right to speak out and discourage and educate and lobby for change. So whether it´s a popular notion or not, anti-breeders have the right to work toward shutting down the breeders.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:26 am

Funny I should run across this revived thread tonight. I had good discussions at work today on breeding dogs with two separate clients. It can be so frustrating to have them ask the same questions over and over and state "we only wanted one litter/puppy."

Highlights of today:
1. An inexperienced breeder cried inconsolably as we euthanized her week old puppy with a cleft palate. No money to do anything. At least she was fair and didn´t try to "save" it at home. It was a male and she thought it was a female. Last time I checked, sexing puppies wasn´t that difficult.

2. A phone call came in from a very worried owner who "knew" which day her bitch was bred due to the inexperience of the (too young) stud. They attempted 7 days of breeding. Only one tie. The bitch was now about a week from whelping (I corrected her erroneous information she got from other sources about gestation). I also went over all of the alarm signs. The fact time is of the essence in problems since the bitch may die and was certainly bred too old. This was their first litter ever. They wanted one litter. I just hope we don´t have to see her for dystocia, pyometra, or cancer in the future.

3. A third attempt at convincing some guy to neuter his Chocolate Lab. Missed heartworm prevention already and the dog is less than a year old. Talked to his girlfriend about CERF, OFA, ECHOs, temperaments, genetics, health issues, etc. when breeding. Told them it was important to look at all sides of the issue and consider morality issues. RESPONSIBILITY. I think the guy´s dad had a prospective bitch to breed.

4. Euthanized a healthy 9 year old cat due to "life´s circumstances." "OTC" Euthanasia since the owner was not a regular client. I had one of the DVMs do it since I refused.

It is not an easy road. Why would rescuers and concerned animal advocates even bother? I should have taken the easy way out and told them all to just go ahead, since they "have rights?"

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Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 1:01 pm

I´ve been going on guinea pig messageboards for a couple years now, and this topic always rears its head, on any board, with varying degrees of conciliation and nastiness, depending on who´s participating. Never having been involved in breeding, never having been interested in showing animals, or even really ever understood the lure of creating "pure bred" or "show quality" animals, I´ve kept my mouth shut and simply gone on to read other threads. But I´m really fed up with the b.s. abundant in this topic.

Rationalization for breeding animals to meet some artificially imposed standard of "quality" or "beauty" is just nonsense. Love an animal for what it is or don´t bother with them - but quit trying to genetically engineer the perfect specimen and litter the world with your failed experiments. Animals are not toys in your personal sandbox to be played with, improved, then tossed aside when a better one comes along, although too many people are guilty of this behavior.

Society does not condone selling children for profit, yet blissfully applies a double-standard when it comes to animals. Society does not condone "breeding" children for profit, or for perfection; yet again, it shows its true morality by recklessly reproducing animals in search of perfection. Or is it for a ribbon, or recognition? You can buy your blue ribbon for $3.99 at KMart; do something to contribute to or improve the state of the world, the human condition, if you want recognition.

Dismiss my argument as "ignorant", "closed-minded", etcetera - there´s always a good reason to turn a deaf ear, isn´t there? But I do not apologize for my stand, not for my words, and not for any delicate feelings injured by a blunt dose of truth.


Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:17 pm

Nor will I apologize for being concerned that people wanted to ´harrass´ members listed in an ACBA publication.

Whether breeding is right or wrong, or whether I am a responsible breeder or not wasn´t my issue (although thank you to those kind enough to give me the benefit of the doubt).

My issues are:

This post originated because people wanted breeders to foster some of these rescues. Why would breeders want to get involved when they know members of the rescue community are intolerant of of their beliefs/hobby? I´m not saying ´not in agreement´ or ´philosophically opposed". I´m saying INTOLERANT. How much of a rhetorical low blow was that KKK statement, demonizing my status as a breeder by invoking that image? (I have a right to drive and to vote also, but you didn´t choose those less-sensitive rights. I wasn´t interested in a moral argument, which seems to be where the replies to my post went.) And how dismissive was it to apply a cutsey, albeit derogatory, term to Julian´s post because she was willing to consider getting along with a breeder for the sake of the animals? Ciaytee, likening my right to breed to my right to join the KKK is EXACTLY WHY breeders feel the need to be heard, as you were complaining about, when the word ´breeder´ is used in a rescue-oriented context. I have a right to speak out too.

Also, the question as to why it was wrong for those involved in a transport last year to rail road animals to adopted homes, but it is okay this year to haul them to shelters across the country, wasn´t answered. Teresa, after everything those involved, not just myself, went through last year, your endorsement of this trip seems hypocritical. I guess I didn´t actually ask a question in my previous post so. . . can you please explain the difference? I felt that the circumstances here in Florida were exceptional too. Our adoption outlets were also pretty saturated, and we are in a much smaller area.

I´m not asking everybody see things my way. I´m asking to be heard without being hated and I´m asking two specific questions.


Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:16 pm

300 into 30 million. Goes in many times over (don´t have my calculator handy)

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Almost Inbred

Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:36 pm

Really, I don´t hate you. And just because you breed doesn´t mean that I automatically believe you´re unethical and hell-bound. I have family members that breed various animals, and I don´t like it, and I think they´re misguided and have blinders on, but I do adore them, and I know that they have good hearts. From your posts here, you seem like a fairly decent and ethical person. Truly, my problem isn´t with you, personally.

My point in the posts was just to say that I´m tired of hearing:

"I´m a breeder, and I´m responsible and careful, so you shouldn´t speak badly about breeders."


"Whether or not you like it, I have a right to breed, so you shouldn´t speak badly about breeders."

And I seem to hear those a helluva lot. It´s the defensiveness and the blind eyes to the bigger picture that piss me off. I would have more respect for a breeder who admitted, "Yes, there´s a population problem, but I just flat-out don´t care, and I´ll do what I want anyway" than I do the ones who stick their fingers in their ears and scream, "Lalala! I can´t hear you! I have my rights! Lalala!"

You used the arguments, but I can see you´re not like that. Unfortunately most of the ones who do use them are.

I used the KKK analogy not to compare the act of breeding with the acts of the KKK (the effects of the two don´t even compare), but just to show that not everything we have a legal right to do is the morally correct thing to do. Voting and driving don´t really have an ethical attachment to them, so something like them wouldn´t have worked.

I have no clue what went on in Florida, so I´ll keep my mouth shut on that one.

As for Julian, I thought Teresa was just yanking her chain a little. Can anyone really use the word ´schmoopy´ and be serious? I actually mostly agree with Julian.

I just cannot handle when those 2 illogical arguments are used.


Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:34 pm

Nor will I apologize for being concerned that people wanted to ´harrass´ members listed in an ACBA publication.

Where is this printed. Did I miss something? Is this on some other board?

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Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:47 pm

Why would breeders want to get involved when they know members of the rescue community are intolerant of of their beliefs/hobby? I´m not saying ´not in agreement´ or ´philosophically opposed". I´m saying INTOLERANT.
Some people on this forum are quite tolerant. Most of the ´rescues´ are not very ´tolerant´ of breeders. To tolerate means to accept one´s views. That´s the definition of tolerance. Our rescue views aren´t born or adopted overnight. I USED to have ideas of working together with breeders. I have personally contacted the so-called highly-respected breeders in my area. I have made a number of attempts to meet with, discuss, exchange ideas, blah, blah, blah any number of times with the breeders. That was a while ago. You know what? They were the ´intolerant´ ones. Not me. What you don´t seem to get is that the more you DO rescue, the harder it is in many ways. It´s a growing, learning, experiential process that weighs you down and eats at your heart, your mind, your bank account, and your body. Ask any rescuer. We pay for your hobby/philosophy/beliefs in many ways, so don´t expect a whole heck of a lot of tolerance.
And how dismissive was it to apply a cutsey, albeit derogatory, term to Julian´s post because she was willing to consider getting along with a breeder for the sake of the animals?
At GuineaLynx, we generally abhor the group hug, ´can´t we all just get along´ mantra. (And yes, I was jerking her chain; we´re good friends.) I had your answers all written until she posted that. Then, I thought, well, okay, forget it, let´s all kiss and hug and make up and hold hands. This thread is giving me heartburn anyway. I thought I answered your question, but I guess not. Let me repeat this part:
Under normal circumstances, it is not necessary to ship pigs to find them homes. Large rescues happen all across the country throughout the year. There were quite a few this year all over. But with 700 homeless pigs in one area at one time AND the fact that we just had a huge placement of well over 300 guinea pigs less than a year ago, and 60-70 of them still remained, and the rescues here are active and full already, we needed to do something out of the ordinary. And out of the ordinary it was. AND, we got shelters and rescues involved all across the country. And we spread the message about rescue and adoption and care of the animals all across the country and then some. I was well aware of the population issues in the areas where we sent pigs and we worked with all the rescues in the area to make this a win/win for everyone.
You are now asking this:
Also, the question as to why it was wrong for those involved in a transport last year to rail road animals to adopted homes, but it is okay this year to haul them to shelters across the country, wasn´t answered.
I said we WORKED WITH SHELTERS and rescues. I didn’t say we TOOK PIGS AND LEFT THEM AT SHELTERS. All of the major drop points to adopters were made in front of shelters across the country, thereby giving them much needed press and exposure and awareness. We didn´t even think of doing the trip until there was an overwhelming commitment of adoptions in areas that we knew to be generally lacking in rescue and shelter pigs (predominantly, the Ohio area). Over time (the years) across the forums, whenever people complain about not being able to find guinea pigs in rescues or shelters, there are pockets of areas, where in fact, we haven´t been able to keep people out of pet stores because there was a dearth of rescues/shelters with cavies in the area. Ohio was of them. Don´t know why, but it is/was.

And, as in the Florida “railroad,” they weren´t just ´carted´ by dog rescuers, who’ve never seen a guinea pig, in tiny 8” x 7” or so show crates heavily pregnant across the country. Did you not see or hear any of the television, newspaper, or radio coverage? As I said before, this event was coordinated with other rescues and shelters across the country, thereby elevating the public awareness as to guinea pigs in need of homes all across the country.

The Florida situation could have easily placed all animals in the Southeast. In point of fact, all but 33 of the original 150 rescued were placed in the Southeast, as were all the rest of the resulting babies. I believe 40 adoptions were made right after the story hit your press.

To your notion about our guinea pigs going to shelters, in our case, almost every adopter completed a detailed, online adoption application, completed a contract, faxed or emailed a copy of their driver’s license and spoke with me at length on the phone. And here’s news: it wasn’t a railroad! We called it that for the press, but it wasn’t one. These pigs went with 2 highly experienced cavy adults and 1 highly experienced cavy youth all the way across the country. They went in large, roomy cages and were well cared for all the way in an air-conditioned vehicle. As far as we knew, no pregnant pigs were put on board---despite many requests for them. They either went to final vetted homes or pure rescues.
Teresa, after everything those involved, not just myself, went through last year, your endorsement of this trip seems hypocritical.
I really didn’t want to dredge up the Florida rescue mess. Friendships were burned. Enemies were made. I think we’d better just leave it at that. Really. I will say that whole disaster was a huge learning experience to me and that´s why I went to extreme lengths to avoid any and all problems that befell that situation. And, I really don´t feel like having to justify the rather incredible rescue event that just took place and is still taking place. It seems to me, that based on the questions and comparisons and accusations you are making, you barely know any of the details of what happened with this situation. It´s been no doubt summed up very differently on other forums or lists. Much of the history of this situation can still be found on this forum and on my website. The truth is out there. :) You can call me a hypocrite. I´ve been called a whole lot worse. I don´t know how else to explain that this was a very unique situation. If I get a call tomorrow to rescue another 150 guinea pigs would I try to find homes for them across the country? No. If I get a call for 500, I think I´ll have to get creative again. Would I do the same thing the same way all over again? Heck no. I don’t know what I’d do.


Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:20 pm

Tolerate - To recognize and respect(other´s beliefs, practices, etc.) without sharing them. Doesn´t say anything about accepting. Webster´s New Collegiate Dictionary.

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Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:36 pm

Well, okay, let´s debate about dictionary definitions. My dictionary says: "acceptance of different views" Microsoft Encarta College Dictionary. I grab that one more than websters because it has more modern and technical definitions. Whatever. Change the above post to respecting rather than accepting. Accept/respect - close enough to my point. The points on both sides still stand.


Post   » Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:48 pm

I guess I would go for the more accurate expression of my thought rather than the more modern/technical. But hey, different strokes for different folks. Not really interested in debate.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:43 am

This thread has been bugging me tonight and it really shouldn´t. I just feel like I do so often at work talking to so many pet owners. Helpless and frustrated. I´m sure the rescuers here can relate.

This venom directed towards Teresa is personal. I, for one, don´t believe it is warranted at all. I stand behind her 100% and do what I can to support her (and other reputable rescue) efforts. I have been to her home and rescue. I have known her for several years. She doesn´t need me to stand up for her, since she has her own backbone, but I would if need be.
I have watched her countless times pouring her time, talent, and treasure into these pigs. Her entire heart and soul is spent on saving cavies! Whether it is helping pass cavy beneficial legislation, doing public education, or spending one-on-one time helping a potential new owner make a cavy castle--Teresa is there. As far as I know, the successful adoptions that she has assisted are more than 400 (that´s my unofficial count, could easily be more). These homes are true "forever" homes. The adopters are fully screened and required to meet many standards as well as sign the "do not breed/sell/give away--rescuer gets back if necessary" contract with many stipulations for appropriate care. These adopters are not poorly equipped once Teresa has educated them!


I also think I should respond to the ACBA reference. I do not see "harass" anywhere in my writings and I did not fully intend such. As Teresa stated, it was just an idea to see if there was anyone else deeply involved in cavies who would step up to the plate, especially since there are several breeders in that area known to have more than 200-300 cavies and supply pet stores as well as local show venues. Contacting ACBA judges and breeders in the area was a logical choice for cavy-type people, even though one stated of rescue "we don´t usually encourage that," in an article in a SF Bay Area newspaper. They´ve got to admit they are producing cavies and the rescues are cleaning up by rehoming the overflow. Logic, isn´t it? It is curious that the cavy (breeder/show) fancy has yet to publicly support rescues when most other animal fancies have very public and active support for rescue. It is almost a requirement for some animal clubs to participate/contribute in some way to rescue if a member shows and/or breeds.

I´ve been there. I have been involved in cavies for more than 20 years and was very involved in showing/breeding. I sanctioned and secretaried many shows, usually attending 6-10 shows yearly. I didn´t breed more than 2-3 litters a year and the cavies got fairly good care, but I know better now. I got a conscience and backbone and seriously examined my life. I have to answer for my own actions. I rescue now as a way to atone for my wrongdoings, no matter what I thought was morally right at the time.

I still know many of the people involved in ACBA and run into them here and there. Don´t worry, I discontinued my ACBA membership at least 2-3 years ago and my subscription this year. It wasn´t worth it "for the articles." The content has been lacking for some time, but my own article submissions would have angered many of the breeders who insist on treating all health problems in their own barns and allowing the rest or the ill animals to die or be killed in non-AVMA approved methods. The JACBA has really not appealed to me recently when a judge admitted to (and advocated) eating her culls for lack of the effort required to responsibly rehome them. Another judge publicly admitted in an article that he had cavies he saved from the potentially fatal breeding pen and others he didn´t.
Last edited by Josephine on Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:04 am

A judge eating her "culls" for lack of their showability and effort required to responsibly rehome them. OMGosh, is this documented anywhere in print?

I´ll be having nightmares tonight. All of my sweet pigs would be " culls". Geez, I´m genetically a mutt myself. Thank heaven for my mom and all she had to put up with me.
How could you look into the face of a littermate knowing you had consumed their sibling earlier for asthetics .......?????

This is a very rude awaking for me. I want to vomit.

Josephine, I know you to be an honorable person. Is this "accepted " procedure?

I´ve personally and professionally documented Teresa´s SACRIFICE for the pigs.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:13 am

A recent JACBA was dedicated in its entirety to the production and uses of cavies in research, pet stores, etc. It was possibly meant to give breeders ideas on markets for their culls. Teresa has the proof. I couldn´t stand to keep it. As far as I know, this judge is the only major player to advertise she eats her culls. It gets worse as the article describes her reasonings and methods for getting to this eventual "ideal solution."

Sorry to make you nauseated. I pretty much am that way right now reading this thread again. The neverending saga, I guess.

The more commonly accepted practices are selling to pet stores, to people at shows, as reptile and raptor food, and killing them and just disposing of the bodies. I didn´t go over the methods of "euthanasia," but those would make you gag as well. Let´s just say the general public doesn´t have access to the controlled drug the veterinary community uses to give an overdose of anesthesia (the preferred and AVMA-approved method of euthanasia).

I couldn´t sleep. That´s why I´m up obsessing over things I can not change.
Last edited by Josephine on Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:25 am

I´m crying. This is so disturbing. I lost Sharlene´s old Begonia yesterday despite trying to move heaven and earth to save her. She was a mutt. Still worthy of effort. All my treasured animals ( birds, dogs, chins, guinea pigs) have been "unworthy´ but have greatly enriched my life.

Thank you Josephine for speaking so frankly.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:32 am

I just wish it wasn´t so....

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For the love of my girls!

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:59 am

I have been following this thread... I cannot believe what I am reading tonight.

As E says "I hate people."

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For the love of my girls!

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:36 am

This is so disturbing. I am with you Josephine... it is keeping me awake.

What is JACBA? I assume it is something like Journal of American Cavy Breeding Assoc. Am I close?

I had a "friend" ask me tonight how much money I was making from the rescue pigs I have in foster care. HELLO! Then she wanted to know why I was getting paid to breed them! HELLO! I guess the concept of helping animals, any animal, because it is the humane thing to do escapes some people.

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Me, too!

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:12 am

Okay, was trying to ignore this thread, but now I´m officially beyond help.

To breeders: As a rescuer, I will NEVER condone your activity. That doesn´t mean you can´t go on living a perfectly wonderful life doing whatever it is you do however it is you choose to do it.

It does mean, however, that if you come onto this board and spit venom at Teresa, who is as near to a matyr for her cause as anyone I know, you will make enemies.

Why do you need to make and post, and continue posting, when you know it is inflammatory?
Last edited by gracielee on Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:29 pm

Yup. Journal of the American Cavy Breeder´s Association.

Some people don´t listen, either. You know, lack of synapses firing. About two weeks ago, I ran across someone who wanted to talk about animals when I was dropping off some green waste at the recycling center. He saw I had a truckload of shavings (one week´s worth of bedding) and asked what kind of animals I had. Well, silly me has been talking to everyone I know about the Hollister pigs and thought this was a good opportunity to spread some more information. After I explained the huge number of homeless cavies, the situation under which the Hollister rescue went down, and the fact that there are several other big breeders that are being watched by humane authorities in Northern CA... you wanna know what he said?

"Yeah, I´d thought about getting some guinea pigs sometime and breeding them for the pet stores. I´d really like to get some."

HELLO? I was late for an appointment and fuming, so I just spat, "Well, unfortunately, that´s what causes the problems!" Needless to say the guy was not happy and we each went our ways quickly.
Last edited by Josephine on Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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