2016 US Presidential Elections - who do you side with?

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Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:19 am

Like I said, you were conned. He is a lousy businessman. He lies. I doubt he has any idea how to do the things he said he would do and does not understand how it will wreck us as a country. I could cite examples of his incompetence and ignorance ad infinitum. Believe me, America has lost.

The world will never look at us the same.

I do not know how long it will take for you to realize this but realize it, you will.

John Oliver rocks.

And got the T-shirt

Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:35 am

There are plenty of us who get the Art of the Deal reference, GPIG. You're not the only reader on the forum, by a long shot. And just to be picky, Trump didn't write it, either.

The thing is, Trump is a lousy manager. His list of corporate failures is far longer than his list of corporate successes. And any number of reputable conservative sources have pointed out that he's actually lost an enormous amount of money in his lifetime, saying that if he'd put his inheritance in an index fund and left it there, it would be worth considerably more than his worth now. So how does that qualify him to manage?

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Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:51 am

Sean Patrick Hughes, conservative military man, addresses Trump and racism.


Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:02 am

I wasn't trying to be supperior bpatters, it was a joke and that he didn't write it was the point, as Hitler didn't write Mein Kampf

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:32 am

I don't hate you GPIG, just as I don't hate my buddy at work who voted for Trump. But there's definitely a feeling of estrangement, us vs. them, that I've never had after any election in my 44 years of voting no matter how much I disliked the candidate who won. And that's because I feel like you and your fellow voters have chosen a president who will run the country into the ground in many ways and hurt a lot of people in the process. And the entire world.

Actually, I didn't get the reference to Trump writing "The Art of the Deal" - never paid any attention to the book. But I want to clarify "as Hitler didn't write Mein Kampf" so readers understand what you're referring to. He dictated it while in prison to Emil Maurice and Rudolf Hess who were also in prison with him after the Beer Hall Putsch in Munich. And it was, of course, edited. **But the ideas are all Hitler's**

And yes, a democratic republic can elect an authoritarian president - there's nothing to protect the country from that.

And back to my bottom line on Trump & Hillary: Trump's problems, legal and otherwise, are on an order of magnitude worse than Hillary's. You won't agree with me - no reason to go chapter & verse, but that's how I see it. Never talked to my buddy at work about it - no point.

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Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:04 pm

The truth hurts. Lies are so much more convenient.

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Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:30 pm

If I may just point something out here. Many of us have expressed sadness over how divisive the whole campaign/election has been. And how it has continued to drive a wedge between friends/relatives, etc.

I'm not foolish enough to think everyone here needs to be any different. I just hope we can be careful about about how we treat each other here, so that politics doesn't drive a wedges between us as well.

I count all all points of view, and civil discourse here, as well as all the times we have had to agree to disagree.

Sermon ended. Thank you all.

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:49 pm

Some excerpts from Lynx's Sean Patrick Hughes link & be sure to read his first paragraph in which he establishes his conservative credentials:

I’ve been all over this planet. And there’s a troubling observation that I’ve made on my way. It’s that mankind, when left to our own devices, does not naturally accept different people. Whether I saw Sunni and Shia in Iraq refusing to recognize the humanity of the other because of relatively nuanced differences in their common faith, or tribal warfare and genocide in sub-Saharan Africa or racial oppression and modern slavery of East Asia, the ingrained need to divide and subjugate others is ever present. In mankind’s darkest moments, the most common culprit has been that division.

Where lack of structure provides no castes, we subjugate gender. It’s as consistent across time and region as the number of our limbs or the shape of our organs. Fifty years ago in America, we made the first real effort, at scale, in the history of man, to change it in a society as diverse as ours. And since then, we’ve made great but imperfect progress.

On Tuesday, we took one giant leap backward on the arc of our journey to one people....
*** I know why he was elected. He was elected because the only message that matters for the American government in 2016 is a need for change. ... And the ultimate choice that was made, the one people will remember a hundred years from now, was a willingness to ignore personal decency and fair treatment towards people who are different in service to that change.*** That was the choice that the minority of the American electorate made. That was the choice that about a quarter of eligible American voters made.

I’m not here to argue the legitimacy of the results. And I don’t get to pick and choose whether I support democracy because of the outcomes. I won’t tell you that you are a racist or a bigot if you voted for Donald Trump. I won’t even tell you that you personally are indecent. But I will tell you what you just bought with your choice. You bought a very vigilant, sensitive and loud American majority who will cry foul at the drop of a hat for anything that resembles attacks on those we have fought so hard for these last fifty years. Because what you showed us with his nomination and your vote in the election, is that you can’t be trusted to do it without us.


Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Ok so I won't sugar coat it. After I voted for President Obama, I received the same backlash from the other half of people I know. In fact, until the Saturday before the election I had a friend calling to tell me that if Hillary was elected it's still my fault because I was responsible for putting Obama in office, which set the whole thing up, apparently. I've heard your almost word for word admonishments when voting for a person completely opposite.

Obama was a communist and he was going to destroy the country. It wasn't a small pocket of people saying that. Socialism would be the new rule. I didn't care, I wanted real change towards the things I believe in which I have no desire to list here but they are not based in hate and oppression. My motivations aren’t yours, nor are they what you fear. Obama wasn't the catalyst I hoped for and once again I had been conned, apparently.

I don't know if Trump is going to accomplish anything, I don't have a lot of hope. You mistake me for the people who are rah rah Trump will save us. I don't know, I doubt it but it was worth one more shot. I don't believe there will be another and I'm certain Hillary wasn't going to produce it. I do know the other choice was a continuing course towards a slow, painful death. Maybe this will produce a quick death or maybe a miracle will happen, they’ve happened before, ask Hillary - sorry.

I don't fear going back to square one, I've believed the need for a while, and it doesn’t make me happy. Apparently you all feel that means racial and sexual orientation oppression. You assume we must mean to exclude other races and religions. I’m sure it does for some, but that hasn’t worked either and the people who think like me are serious about change, real change not racism, bigotry and hate - it’s useless and produces nothing but misery for those who practice it and those who it is practiced against.

What this all means is that barring a Trump miracle the tree of liberty would have to be watered with the blood of patriots so as to have a government of the people by the people which we surely do not have now. I have no illusions of a white knight riding in on a fine Arab Charger.

I find it ironic that you are all so vigilant against prejudices yet have determined the motivations and actions of 60 million people are precisely the same, and that the entire group must look, and sound the same.

And got the T-shirt

Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:29 pm

I find it ironic that you are all so vigilant against prejudices yet have determined the motivations and actions of 60 million people are precisely the same, and that the entire group must look, and sound the same.
No way, Jose. Nobody on here has even implied that.

What we're saying is that Trump incites violence and discrimination, and that he's unqualified to be president by temperament, education, and experience. We are not the same, nor do we expect everyone else to be the same. But we are united against the least qualified person ever to be elected to the office or President, and will do what we can to mitigate the damages that are sure to come.


Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:56 pm

bpatters ,lets be honest, please. I know what you are saying about Trump, and you have not said it but read back what is being said about anyone, especially me, who voted for him. You don't have to read far.

And Bookfan, I bought and paid for my choices a long time ago.


Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:16 pm

Ok enough gpig. I'm out in the barn, your not repsonding, your brother called on the business phone, somone hit and got stuck under the bridge on River road. He said go down to the tow yard get the 45,000 pound truck and go take care of it fast. See you are needed and loved, now enough already and beat it before I get mad.

Sheesh, disapointed result to say the least.

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Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:53 pm

I do admit to being angry. Your being the only person to own up to voting for Trump, you are getting battered. Do recognize RS did not deserve the denigration you aimed at her.

I realize I don't even want to talk to any of my family (brothers and sisters) because I am sure at least a few of them voted for Trump.

I do think this conversation is valuable. Bookfan's links rock.


Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:31 pm

I agree with you Lynx, it is valuable to have the converstaion for learning. Out of respect I haven't been weighing in here when I obviously disagree.

But when the Tree of Liberty and other Jefferson and "Framer" quotes enter the conversation we have the sense to talk him down. You have no idea how far it can go. We actually have a Tree of Liberty on our property, I kid you not.

I will say this much, he is right about one thing; his opinion does not come from a place of hate or exclusion. More than anyone else he taught me tolerance and love of diversity. I have witnessed it in his actions over and over and over. What I don't think he understands is that is not the message being sent out and many who voted the same do not share that quality.

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Post   » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:44 pm

Yes, that is the problem. I believe you. Many of us just feel this is a part of Trump that can't be ignored - that you have to look at the whole man.

Obama could have done much more if the Republicans had not blocked him so completely. It was their goal to make him a one-term president (they said as much). It makes it impossible to get things done.

No matter what positive things Trump might want to do (assuming there are things many of us would agree on), he too has to deal with Republicans and what they want.

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:04 am

"Out of respect I haven't been weighing in here when I obviously disagree. "

I think that's a good choice.

"his opinion does not come from a place of hate or exclusion"

I do recognize that and I'm glad you posted it clearly. Same is true of my friend at work. In fact I have never heard even a remotely bigoted statement from her in all the years I've worked with her. And I've heard what I consider to be somewhat bigoted comments from other coworkers who voted for Hillary. That's why I so puzzled about why she voted for Darth Trump except that I know that she's a diehard Republican.


Post   » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:37 pm

I may not have been clear about the first part though. I disagree with Trump being president, not you guys.


Post   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:58 am

First, my sincere apologies to Raven Shade. I was wrong to say the things I said. I felt attacked and reacted. In hindsight, I can see you were upset and only relaying your personal experiences. I pray your husband keeps his job, you and your family deserve to be secure.

Second, I read a link, the recent daily kos one. I do not believe any citizen has to recognize Trump as president. He will be the president of the US soon, and to deny that is just silly but the term my president implies more. If he has none of your interests or values at heart then by all means, don’t recognize. It is your right.

I agree with the writer’s outcome but disagree with the reasoning. Not accepting because of what’s been done in the past is divisive and continues the merry go round spinning. If we are to ever change the way we govern and come to a place where we truly become a government of the people by the people we have to move past the childish “well you did this so I’m doing that” mentality. If however, one believes in principle a person to be not worthy of their personal endorsement it is imperative for them to NOT legitimize his/her election to office.

In the past week I’m hearing and seeing people saying no more, this election went too far and we are going to get involved in how we are governed. I’m seeing glorious protest throughout America. People are finally realizing they are the Government. We were given the tools to peacefully change the way we are governed. We can stop the cronyism and special interest elections that have destroyed our congress. It is possible for these grassroots protests to effect a sea change in how we elect and support our leaders. We can place people in legislative positions who write bills/laws and vote their constituents best interests as opposed to voting the money/special interest that put them in office today. We will not all agree but if done correctly, if people learn to work towards compromise without mediocrity, it can work.

Trump neither knowingly or purposefully had anything to do with this. He is merely a vehicle now, along for the ride if we sustain the momentum. He has to work with a congress, which he’s not adept at and even this group of rouges we presently have in office will not allow him to run roughshod over the constitution. He will learn this quickly, he hasn’t yet. Continue to protest. I will accept him as my president, hell I voted for him, but I still support every peaceful protest happening throughout America.

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Post   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:20 pm

I do absolutely feel he is going to set the tone. What I've seen so far, is indeed scary.

Regarding two very different issues, what may happen - I hope not:

"A conspiracy-addled Trump team plans its first acts against American Muslims"
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/16/1600445/-A-conspi ... ican-Muslims

Another writer warns that we will be distracted by the Alt-Right, Steve Bannon, and dissension in Trump's transition team while Paul Ryan is working to undo Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid, programs that millions of people rely on.

There is so much at stake.

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Post   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:00 pm

As an outsider who had no stake in the game, here's what some of this looks like:

One of the reasons that voting for Trump with no ill intent really rankles many people is that it means that you took in all the misogyny, racism, sexism, homo/trans-phobia, etc that Trump displayed during the campaign, and essentially said, that doesn't matter because it doesn't affect *me*.

As in, because misogyny is not a problem for *me* it is therefore NOT a problem. Because racism is not a problem for *me*, it is therefore NOT a problem.

You disregarded the health and safety of entire swaths of your fellow citizens and elected a man who horrifies most of the rest of the planet as completely unfit to govern anything, much less a large nation, because you think *you* will benefit in some manner.
Lower taxes, sticking it to the other party, you want a revolt within government - it doesn't matter.

A lot of people will get hurt . That is the impact. I think, in this case, impact is greater than intent.

The impact is that Trump has publicly stated that he is going to defund Planned Parenthood, thus depriving many, many people of needed health care, like cancer screenings. He appointed a known white supremacist to staff. His publicly stated economic policies may lead to major trade wars with Japan, Canada and Mexico. His stance on NATO may endanger people in several countries, including South Korea and the Ukraine. He's not even in office yet!

Seriously - to many parts of the Western world, it looks like America has lost its freaking mind.

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