Guns

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:10 pm


According to the wikipedia article, some conceal/carry states do not require any license or training at all:

"Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, and Vermont are Fully Unrestricted, and allow those who are not prohibited from owning a firearm to carry a concealed firearm in any place not deemed off-limits by law without a permit. "

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jacqueline

Post   » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:54 am


Erinspigs - don't sell yourself short. You've done an amazing job of articulating your views. I've been very impressed with your persistence and efforts to educate and express your opinions.. This is something near and dear to your heart, and something you have lots of experience with.

I've also been impressed with this thread and the calm manner in which people have expressed their views. I agree with you that only when we can be open to listening to all sides of this matter will we ever come to any understanding.

I agree also that criminals will always be able to get their hands on what they want - that's what makes them criminals. Enforcing the law of the land is best left to law enforcement - which also needs some fixing.

If we can get citizens that want to carry guns better trained and screened I think we'll come a long way. . .

Erinspigs

Post   » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:49 pm


All states Lynx, allow the carrying of concealed weapons. Not allowing, at least on paper, has been ruled, would be a violation of the constitution. The key word in the Wikipedia article however, is "qualified" people.

This is a perfect example of what I am trying to illustrate. People knowledgeable of guns know that in states without "real" concealed carry laws it is nearly impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit. Exceptions are sometimes made for former law enforcement, citizens able to pass extensive background check (not the federal one) who have the type job where they are in dangerous situations protecting people or property. I know a person in my state who was a former decorated career soldier that needed a letter from a US Senator, a couple US congressman, a Federal judge and the former former commandant of the US marine corp. to petition for a carry permit in New Jersey.

I didn’t read all of the article but those states you are talking about are being called constitutional carry states and it is becoming more and more popular to allow than disallow. All the studies about shootings in Sandy Hook, Colorado, or data about people being safer or unsafe in the home with firearms can be cited but the reality is there is only one statistic that is being considered, whether local law enforcement wants to take credit or not - In most all states allowing concealed carry, crime rates have dropped, often significantly, since allowing concealed carry.

So the time to get out and in front of this thing and have the type things Talishan wrote about is now. I think It would be wise for the people calling for safety within gun control really begin to understand guns, the law, and protocols of how applied. Unfortunately, this is a topic where you can read about gun laws and their application and not have any idea of the reality. So much in the media regarding guns really is prejudice, and I’m not one of those paranoid conspiracy people.

I mentioned before, there was so much time and effort during the Clinton years , I think ( I was too young, had to read and be told about it) for gun laws to be passed that so much was overlooked and even the legislators were often downright bamboozled because they didn’t know what they were talking about. The AR15 Bayonet lug is a perfect example. The time and money spent on coming up with a description of what it was they wanted to ban took so long. The gun manufactures snickered (I think), went to the blue prints, removed the bayonet lug and simply modified the flash suppressor. It did nothing except prevent one from having a bayonet lug and the only people wanting that would be ones wishing for authenticity and probably not the types that shoot up schools. And thanks Talishan and Jacqueline.

SnpDrgnz

Post   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:20 am


I'm a little late to the party, but I found this great article discussing mental illness in relation to shootings, and mass shooting versus gun crime as a whole.

Anecdotally, I live in AZ, where you generally do not have to have a permit to carry a gun, concealed or openly (with some exceptions, such as being under 21), and other than federal restrictions, you do not have to register your firearms.

I drive alone considerably within the state, and in neighboring states, in areas that are sparsely populated. I grew up in a family with extensive use of firearms, for hunting, target shooting, self-defense, and so on. Interestingly, I grew up in a household where we were never allowed to play with guns (plastic toy guns, water guns, 1st person shooter video games, etc), and both my brother & I are heavily involved in the firearms industry.

I do carry. I carry in case I have an accident involving wildlife, and for self-defense. I'm very familiar and comfortable with my weapon, and I keep it stowed securely, but within easy reach. It is well-maintained, appropriate for my size and stature, as well as how I carry it, and I practice drawing & shooting regularly with it. It is never accessible to anyone but myself.

I had an incident, in the past year, where someone road raged against me, got out of their vehicle and advanced on me, and then subsequently tried to run me off the road as I tried to retreat. No one tried to help me. No one called 911. I had no where to go, and nothing to defend myself with (save for a seatbelt cutting knife in the glove box).

Even with there being a weapon involved (my knife in the glove box), the PD response time was still 10+ minutes. Sitting there, screaming, calling 911, trying to maneuver my vehicle out of traffic, then trying to outdrive this person - I thought I was going to die.

I had forgotten my gun. I did the same things as if I would have had it - I tried to de-escalate the situation, to get help, to retreat. I did not instigate any of this (as it was, this person was mad at me, the person 2 cars behind him, for speeding), and if you were to look at me, I'm about the least intimidating person ever. In this case, I was outsized by at least 6" and 50 pounds - so all those teachings about how to physically deflect an assailant were fairly wasted.

I'll never forget that feeling of utter helplessness, and I'll never know how I managed to get out of that incident (physically) unscathed. I do know that if I were to be presented with that situation again, I would choose to leverage myself with a defense more than what I had available to me at the time.

Erinspigs

Post   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:55 am


I'm glad you were ok SnpGragnz, it souds like it easily could have been a much worse outcome for you.

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jacqueline

Post   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:24 am


Snp - Oh my G-d, how terrifying! I have become so much more cautious about expressing any feelings while driving. It scares me to think there are so many people behind the wheel who are that close to losing it.

Glad it all had a good outcome.

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Wheekers3

Post   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:16 am


In road rage situations I have advised my sons to tape or at least pretend to tape aggressors and their vehicles. I would think that should, in most cases, stop them in their tracks.

I say hold the phone up and pretend to tape only because you should not be fiddling with your head down looking at phone, and not paying attention to driving.

I have been followed into a parking lot and verbally attacked for flipping off a old man who nearly plowed into the side of my vehicle as he pulled into traffic. I had flipped him off. I did so because I was heavily injurred in the same exact situation a couple years prior - causing the downward spiral of my physical shortcomings. The guy charged me and was screaming and pointing his pokey finger at me. Nobody stepped in to stop him.

I never flipped anyone off again.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:14 pm


Road rage is indeed scary. I'm sure you've turned this over in your mind many times, Snp. Introducing a gun can also make things go south. I know you would hate to have the death of another person on your hands. I would hate to have had him pull his own gun in response and end up with you dead or injured.

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JaneDoe

Post   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:45 pm


I have been robbed four times since 2003 and some people have advised me to get a gun. I am afraid I would just snap and shoot the wrong person or myself. I don't even carry pepper spray for that reason, but more because I have been told it is too easy for an attacker to turn it on me.

I wish I could be like Mike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS6kAKj8R9o

SnpDrgnz

Post   » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:10 pm


This happened just outside my neighborhood too, and because it's a road used at the time pretty much only by a few subdivisions, I've worried that I'll come up on him again.

I normally have a bit of a lead foot, but I keep my distance from other vehicles. In this case, I was just hanging out a couple cars behind this guy, relaxing on my way to work (it's a really beautiful desert preserve highway), and I ended up the lucky driver right behind him as the others changed lanes at the light.

Because he had been acting erratically before this (waving his arm out the window, flipping people off, changing speed quickly), I pulled my phone from my purse, and took a photo when I found myself behind him (and then more a few seconds later while talking to 911).

Later, because my hospital parking permit was easily recognizable, I had to file a report & be escorted by security on my work campus. Because he was no longer at the scene, and I was in one piece, there was very little done by PD.

I generally don't carry mace (I have in the past, and sometimes will carry a variant while camping/hiking), because in the heat of the moment, it can be tough to actually get in an assailant's face/eyes, and even then, some people can just power through it. Also, aerosolized pepper spray does not mix well with the Arizona heat (they can leak or explode if left in a hot car). Same with a taser - the barbs can get caught on a jacket, or in jeans. You need to be fairly close for either to be effective - a Taser needs under 3-5 feet, pepper spray under 10 feet.

I do still carry a long knife in my car, as well as a multipurpose/cutting tool, in case something comes up. I've used it to cut fishing line caught around my shoe, actually, and to lever a tumbleweed out from my suspension. I would not present it in any altercation - I don't have great grip strength, it would be possible for someone with a longer reach to disarm me, and I don't want to allow anyone that close that intends me harm. A friend of mine (that teaches martial arts), taught me several good evasive moves - but again, it's a risk to let someone so close, and if they evade your evasive moves, you're in trouble.

It is illegal to carry a firearm while intoxicated. Even in Arizona, where there are no registration requirements, many stores will hesitate to sell without a CCW. I have been taught (and teach others), that when you carry, you have a responsibility to de-escalate any precarious situations, to retreat first & if at all possible. It is illegal to brandish a firearm - and drawing not in legitimate self-defense is taken seriously.

I carry mine in a sturdy holster that it not accessible to anyone else, that has excellent coverage over the trigger, and a round can not be chambered or discharged while it is secured. I can sit, stand, drive, run, bike, and it doesn't move.

Negligent discharges are a problem, and they happen when firearms are not secured properly. We had someone in the Valley shoot himself in the family jewels after holstering his fiancee's pink Ruger in his waistband, in a grocery store. Sadly, this extends to children gaining access, too, and the heartbreak that entails.

Honestly, my feelings are very mixed. I feel like the party lines of "gun control" and "better mental health care" are tired slogans at this point, and that's beyond frustrating. I can't even imagine the emotional repercussions of taking someone else's life - even to save my own, or that of my loved ones - but I also have a strong desire to not die at someone else's hand.

There are absolutely many people that have no business owning a gun, but how do we determine this fairly & reliably? In my experience, gun owners, especially those that own many, shun those that are irresponsible or dangerous. There are absolutely illegal avenues to obtain weapons, by people that have no sporting/collection/hobbyist/self-defense intention.

I do find that this incident - as traumatic as it was - makes me least likely to draw my firearm, and more likely to explore every alternative available to me.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:25 am


It looks like he shouldn't be on the road, either. I am sorry you had to go through this stress and trauma.

Edit:

Combat veterans shoot down NRA ‘fantasy world’ of ‘good guys with guns’

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/its-insane-combat-veterans-s ... s-with-guns/

piggypie

Post   » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:07 pm


A tale of two cities. A comparison between Vancouver and Seattle.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198811103191905

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:08 pm


I will read this later today.

Erinspigs

Post   » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:57 am


I keep attempting to get the point across to not settle on any one set of statistics whenever possible and I think there are some good illustrations within these articles. Whatever you’re opinion is or isn’t, people are using sleight of hand to influence conclusions, on both sides of the argument. The NE Journal of Medicine article that’s been sited is from 1988 and the present day statistics for murder in the two cities (2013 I think, Seattle may be 2014) are 56 murders in Vancouver Metro area vs. 26 in Seattle. There’s a whole lot of mumbo jumbo about 4:1 fold and what not. I don’t know about any of it except what the murder rate is that I listed. I only hope that’s right, I wouldn’t bet my life on it though.

On to the other article which pisses me off a little bit to be frank, it doesn’t say what Sgt. Rafael Noboa y Rivera did while in Iraq other than he is now retired. For all we know, he could have been called Cooky Rafael Rivera on the chow line.

The “ army combat veteran”, John Parker sited as having been armed during the Oregon shooting and made the decision not to intervene “with other armed” veterans has changed from being an Army veteran to an Air Force veteran then changed again to he never had the opportunity to intervene had he wanted to. He was herded away by school officials and wasn’t close. Also because he was on school grounds he would have been carrying a concealed weapon illegally whether he had a permit or not – even if his story was believable, that might be a good reason he didn’t intervene. The story concludes having gone full circle about Parker saying, he was unable to stop the shooting.

I agree you would find a lot of military personnel who think civilians aren’t properly trained in the use of firearms. They would be correct, in my opinion only. I have also have learned if they were to keep an open mind and continue themselves learning about firearms, they would come to find their own military firearm training (assuming he wasn’t SF and I’m certain he wasn’t) was miniscule to what is actually available to real shooters. However, you don’t have to be Tom Brady to play flag football. Had Mr Parker really been Air Force Combat – AF Paramilitary, and I’m told this by someone who knows, the shooter would have had a double tap to the head way before he was finished shooting.

I have taken combat pistol classes at a level higher than instructional firearm use. It doesn’t make me an expert, nor do I think I am. Protection is not the sole or even main reason I like or want to have firearms. I don’t know where anti gun people get the notion everyone who has a gun wants to shoot up the bad guys and that’s why we all have guns. Maybe it comes from the losudest voices of pro gun advocates who don’t speak for everyone either. There are a lot of stupids out there, pro gun people too, who say dumb stuff. I could go on about the particulars of the stories, But the “combat shooter” article with Sgt Rivera’s comments particularly annoys and hits home with me. I think I have the right and knowledge enough from family I beleive to call him full of ___ but my point here was more; I’m with you all about having people who carry firearms be sane, trained properly in their use and in the situational awareness needed if you are going to carry but be mnindful of where the information and “facts” come from.

ADD: I dind't mean anyone here is trying to misguide

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:18 am


Lots of weapons on campus. This article seems to lay things out:

http://www.newsweek.com/weapons-common-oregon-college-campus-despite-gun-free-zone-379860

Bookfan
For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:28 am


Snp - the article discussing mental illness in relation to shootings was terrific.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:25 pm


That is a good article! Am in the middle of reading it now.

Bookfan
For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:27 pm


I cringed when I read early reports about Sandy Hook & that the shooter had Asperger's!!! Like people with Asperger's are more likely to be killers than "normal" people. Might as well have said, he was blond!!! You know how violent some of those blond people are! (not being serious - trying to make a point)

Adam Lanza obviously had huge problems but Asperger's isn't what made him a mass murderer.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:49 pm


I was reading about the terrible mass murder in Australia in 1996. 35 people were killed and 23 injured by one man who collected a bunch of semi-automatic guns and went on a rampage. Australia took decisive action to buy back certain weapons and restrict ownership to only people who had a good reason for it. Gun murders have plummeted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_%28Australia%29

Erinspigs

Post   » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:31 am


I went with my brother to the big Forks of the Delaware Gun show, a very large east coast gun show. The scuttlebutt over there is that Hillary is already the de facto president. The increase in mass shootings is because they are being done by the government so Hilary, when she officially becomes president, can ban all guns in America and have the socialist government liberals crave. The shooters are being mind controlled by everything from fluoride in the water to real serious psyop stuff by secret black op government alphabet agencies we don’t even know about. Yup, this could be the reason alright.

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