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Post   » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:06 am

Pretty sad state of affairs, especially when it seems some of these people have been elected to congress.


Post   » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:31 pm

It is sad. And what makes me sadder is that the two sides are so equally convinced the other is the crazy.

I don't know why we can't have a real debate in this country without opposing sides taking such extreme positions, making it impossible to find common ground. There is little respect for different viewpoints. I don't know why, it's how I learned a lot about things I didn't know about. It seems ignorant to me.

My History teacher is allowing me to do my whole year grade on a report about gun control. I've been gathering some information here from a sensible group that are in favor of more gun control. I have sensible people on the other side as well. I've written my outline and have a section devoted to the rise in mass shootings. What I've found in my research is that these types of rifles being used, high capacity high powered, were in abundance beginning in the 1960s, much more legally available to own and in greater numbers. So why the rise in shootings now? It's not because these guns just became available. Not taking a a position on banning them for this exercise, rather trying to find out why not what is doing it, they were always there so that's not it.

The rational choice theory on crime says something like most crime is committed when the benefit of the crime outweighs the risk of being caught. Not the case here, what do they want? Why are they doing it? I don't think it's mental illness, maybe some of the time, I believe it's because everyone has a need to be heard from now. I don't think it's even about fame because they are dead and won't realize or see it in most cases. The spread of new media technology has created a deep need in people to be heard, their points need to get across, dead or alive. And the point in which all of this was born was Columbine. The media coverage made it attractive to a large group of people. You still here people talking about them as a type of outlaw hero for the bullied. The amount of information and pro shooter websites about Columbine is mind boggling.

And got the T-shirt

Post   » Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:07 pm

I'd suggest you check your source on the types of rifles being used beginning in the 60s. That doesn't sound correct to me, and I lived through it. Assault rifles used to be banned. They've only been allowed in the last 10 years or so.

Congress also restricted research into gun deaths at the behest of the gun lobby. That's been in the news this week, and is probably pertinent to your paper.

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Post   » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:13 pm

Ditto bpatters.


Post   » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:05 pm

Erinspigs, good luck on your report. Have you narrowed down your topic? Is it an informative research paper, or a persuasive report? I would caution you to make sure your statistics come from as objective a source as possible, and that you account for other factors (and that you can back up your assertions at least a time or two over. In fact, if you take a gander through that article I posted, there's a good discussion that while mass shootings are terrible, they are generally considered statistical outliers in the grand scheme of things (which is a sad thing, in & of itself), and they are difficult to make conclusions from.

The WHO (World Health Org) & OECD (Org for Economic Cooperation & Development) have some great databases of information. Something to really keep in mind is how increased reporting can masquerade as increased occurrences (for anything, not just gun violence).

Constant news coverage really came into play with the Challenger crash in 1986, on CNN, and then the Gulf War - this is actually how CNN really catapulted into the big time - hence "the CNN effect."

I actually disagree with you on a basic premise of your argument - while there is a huge amount of vitriol on the web, it provides a vital platform for communication, activism, and discussion. It's easy to throw your hands up in frustration that people are more divided now, or more set on infamy (look at Ted Kaczynski, who managed to have his 35,000 word manifesto published in the Post), but there is a tremendous amount of communication, discussion, and support on the internet. Just like it's provided an outpost for such sentiments, it's also provided a haven & solidarity for countless people (just look at this board).

I'm totally a nerd (in the best of ways, right?) about research papers. Good luck with yours!

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:18 pm

Good advice, Snp, & well-said.


Post   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:50 am

Oh, I did a bit more research on the rifles & the 60s, and rifle history. So, Eugene Stoner is pretty much considered the most successful firearm designer, pretty much ever, and developed the AR-15, picked up by the US military as the Colt M16 (Armalite sold to Colt), and sold for civilian use as a semi-automatic beginning in 1963. So, the AR may have been available starting in the 60s (literally), but it was certainly not commonplace.

I don't know if it was brought up here at all, but AR? It's the acronym for Armalite Rifle - a brand. An AR-15 is generally considered a modern Mauser Model 98 action - moving from a bolt action mechanism, to a gas impingement system.

High capacity magazines were not really perfected until the 80s, much less readily available like they are now, and definitely did not peak in the 60s. In terms of modern aluminum box detachable magazines (used for ARs), they were a result of ammunition production advances during/after Vietnam.

Federal magazine bans define high-capacity as greater than 10 rounds. For reference, my 9mm compact handgun has 12 in its included magazine (plus 1 chambered). Some states have (unsuccessfully, ultimately) banned down to 7 rounds.

Quick & dirty history: if you go back to WWI, the general consensus was "bigger is better" for firearm design, and stripper clips were used to top load multiple rounds directly into the firearm. Pretty high failure rates came from these, and if you ended up with dirt, for example, in your clip, you could end up manually loading rounds, one by one. So, WWII, the StG (Sturmgewehr) 44 was developed by Germany, and is considered the foremost modern assault rifle. Actually, the development & deployment of these rifles had a HUGE impact on how WWII shook down. In fact, the terminology "assault rifle" stems directly from the English translation of the brand name.

So, ultimately, to say that high capacity magazines & modern AR designs were available in the 60s would be correct - but not commonplace, and certainly not purchased/owned/etc on a greater scale than today. Greater access to and utilization of high tech metals have had a major impact here as well.


Post   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:44 am

Although I think Stoner is a genius and his AR was incredible, he's not even close to most successful designers, that would be John Browning. Some others come close but Stoner is not in that group although he made an incredible rifle. And for the hi cap mags they didn’t need perfecting, it’s a spring and a box nothing more. The AR went from 20 round to 30 round clips in 67 or 69. Stripper clips are not just for rifles, they can load mags too so that definition isn’t entirely accurate either.

I really don’t want to argue this but you are arguing with me about something I do know about. Every other argument, theory and what not Ill listen to you but not regarding the firearms you are talking about, I own almost every one, given to me by my father, do you? And I was made to be able to field strip every one blindfolded. Not trying to be rude either, it took a couple years reading about all of them because it can be so confusing. I’m not looking up stuff about the AR and “assault rifles” I already know about them. It’s not the 1980’s. The class of rifles you are talking about started long before with the M1 carbine which came about after the Garand by designer John Garand in World War II, hence M1 Garand/M1 Carbine. And it was the 03 Springfield modeled after the Mauser. Go into the Germans and we go back further. They were available. The only one not available and banned before the 80s as every returning boy from Vietnam knew from seeing a sign before boarding his freedom flight that read AR ok – AK no way, about what they were allowed to bring back. You do know what the AK is? Kalashnikov, theres another genius designer. If you really do want to know the history of the AR I suggest you read The Black Rifle which every AR owner knows as the bible of the rifle.

Yes the class of rifles you are talking about were widely available. The M14 came before the m16 which was military version of AR – a Springfield M14 is an M1A It was fought with in Korea and brought into civilian use after Korea. I caution you about getting your information from Wikipedia on this stuff, not that you are but there is a lot of conflicting stuff out there and like I said hard to wade through. This isn’t a topic you can look up a couple of rifle names in an hour and know about it. I’m doing the report because I do know the one side, it’s the other I’m trying to understand.

And just like the articles you will find that say different things there is a reason, people just use terms. In the book The Black Rifle it is said the AR was called so for Automatic Rifle and 16 was Stoners last version that the Air force bought and the M is just what military designates to differentiate between civilian. However, the book also says it stood for Armalite Rifle, the name of Stoners company. It also says the kids in Vietnam called them Mattels, and they did call them that, but it wasn’t completely accurate. Drill Seargants always remind young soldiers take care of your rifle and remember it was made by the lowest bidder. It was wrongly rumored the toy company Mattel was a contractor, because it looked like a toy with plastic stocks, they weren’t. I can go on and on. Want to see, there was even another reason why they were called Mattels because the founder of Armalite was named Richard Boutel similar sounding to Mattel. But Illl stop here


Post   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:03 am

And BPatters you did live through A ban which is no more in federal law but does exist in some states.

Prior to the the Clinton years they were legal, very legal and very widely avaiable. The things I'm saying aren't opinions, they are facts that can be checked if you research the facts from the people that know about them, not people who don't and write articles about them. If you want to really know, spend time and read the history. Its out there.

Look I dind't invent them. I get it, you all hate and are afraid of them but they are here, were here . I'm trying to give you some facts that would actully help your argument but Ill stop


Post   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:57 pm

I will add this last fact and that's it. Fromthe Washington Post:

There was, however, an important exception. Any assault weapon or magazine that was manufactured before the law went into effect in 1994 was perfectly legal to own or resell. That was a huge exception: At the time, there were roughly 1.5 million assault weapons and more than 24 million high-capacity magazines in private hands.

That's commonplace to me and in the 1950/60s you could buy M1 Carbines in Sears Roebuck without a permit. That' easily accessible to me. M1 Carbines has 30 round clips, the problem was size of ammunition, and stopping power on a battlefield, it had nothing to do with magazine perfection


Post   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:49 pm

Apparently my phone ate my response. I'll try again.

I'm comfortable with my sources. I'll look at what you've brought up, and I absolutely acknowledge the depth & breadth of this subject - when I said "quick & dirty", I wasn't kidding. I'll add that there was wine involved & it was past my bedtime. I stand by my assertions, however.

If you have to preface something with "not to be rude...", you should probably reconsider your delivery. Statements like "I get that you all hate them & are afraid of them" are not particularly accurate, or helpful. Even though you are clearly versed in this topic, your delivery is very divisive (and you earlier questioned why people can't have constructive discussions).

I'm not going to inventory what firearms I have available to me, have used, or are in my possession - not on a public forum, or to someone I do not know. I have handled - or own - a great many of what have been discussed.

You don't have to listen to anything that I say. You state that you already know everything about them, so you're set, right?


Post   » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:48 pm

sorry, I said I was done here. Apologize for my delivery sanp, it came from frustration, not just with you.

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Post   » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:59 am

I think this thread started out pretty mature and adult and even toned. But, as is often the case with topics like this, it's kind of devolving a bit as people take their posts more seriously and start to share personal experiences.

Not a bad thing, mind you, just a natural progression that is hard to avoided.

There's a lot of good information here. Sometimes it helps to just pause, take a breath and step back a minute.

I don't think anyone here intentionally set out to attack, judge or hurt anyone's feelings. Everyone is putting forward their passion and defending it. This is such a complex issue. I applaud all of you for what you've taken the time to share, and hope this thread can continue with that even-toned sharing it started with.

Erin, your contributions here have been invaluable, IMHO. You have so much experience. It's not always the same experience as others here. But GL is big enough to hold multiple experiences without making any of them wrong. Please, take a break if you need one, but keep posting!

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Post   » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:13 am

Mass shootings and the availability of guns are only one part of the problem. Suicides, murder, accidental shootings and more make up the biggest part of the problem. Guns are lethal. Some owners are absolutely not responsible, even resulting in the deaths of children who can barely walk that pick up guns left lying around. Lots of articles about toddlers shooting one person per week this year. ... s-this-year/

I think some gun control ideas have to do with protecting the gun owners themselves.

This site lists death after death of children.
"Every year, nearly 3000 children and teens die from gunfire, and nearly 14,000 are injured. "

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:28 am

Yes, yes and yes. Everything you said, Lynx.

Now how about Bernie's stand on gun control. What do y'all think?

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Post   » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:34 pm

I can live with it. I do think there may be areas he may be willing to change (like being able to sue gun manufacturers - I am thinking, in terms of defects or bad design, a gun owner SHOULD be able to sue).


Post   » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:40 pm

Vermont and about 6 other states have equally the most liberal gun laws in America, named Constitutional Carry States. You can carry concealed and/or open without any permit whatsoever. There is no ban on what is called "assault rifles" or hi capacity magazines. The only obstacle to buying a firearm in Vermont is the federal background check which has nothing to do with state law.

Bernie voted against the Brady Bill and was a NRA favorite until launching presidential campaign when he stated not every state should have the same liberal firearm laws as Vermont.

In fairness, I believe the current laws were in place when he was elected but he did not make any effort to change them, as far as I know.

Ditto Lynx


Post   » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:43 am

As a Canadian, the American obsession with guns boggles my mind. The desire to carry a concealed gun is very weird to me. I'll never understand it.

We do own guns. Two hunting riffles. One for smaller things, one for bigger things. We don't hunt. They are for the sole purpose of putting down a suffering animal if need be. On a farm, you need to be prepared.

I honnestly do not understand why someone would want to walk around armed. Americans are weird.

And got the T-shirt

Post   » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:07 am

Here are two articles with some interesting suggestions on ways to discuss the problem, and suggestions for controlling it: ... uns-Part-Two

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:34 pm

For all you women of a certain age: when I was a kid growing up in suburban Kansas City (1950's & '60s), I don't remember guns being any kind of an issue or even talked about. I didn't know of anyone who kept a gun in their house (which is not to say there weren't any) or packed heat, and being suburbia, not much in the way of hunters.

What are your memories on this subject?

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