Male with bladder stone--need a good vet

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TWP_2

Post   » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:27 pm


Hmm. Going to go look at magnesium content levels in various veggies...

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:33 pm


Hey, it is possible I can make this easy for you. I think with the excel calculator, I have the magnesium levels hidden. I'll go see if I can remember how to reveal them so you can also calculate content (if you can figure out how it fits in).

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:50 pm


Looked at the calculator and the info isn't there. Will take some looking around to find it.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:20 pm


Last edited by Lynx on Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Serena
It started with Louie...

Post   » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:15 pm


I just saw your update now and I am so sad to read about another stone. I went through the same exact thing and can empathize with your hopelessness. Just try to keep him comfortable and remind yourselves that you did all you could.

I wish with all my heart that someone will find a cure to these awful bladder stones quickly. They are hurting too many wonderful pigs and their caring owners.

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scoot

Post   » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:48 pm


Here is the information I mentioned but I don't know how relevant it is now I look at it again.

THe UFAW Handbook on the Care and Management of Laboratory animals. Ed UFAW, Published Churchill Livingstone Edinburgh and London 4th edition 1972
(University Federation for Animal Welfare)

Chapter 19 The Guinea pig or cavy. J Stuart Paterson.

P 232
Table VIII Trace elemented mineral suppliment percentage composition
Sodium Chloride 40.2%
Limestone flour 9.82%
Dicalcium phosphate 31.2%
Magnesium oxide 16.4%
Iron sulphate 1.47
Copper sulphate 0.098
Manganese sulphate 0.77
Cobalt sulphate 0.019
Calcium iodate 0.023

pp239 Soft tissue calcification.
The writer has seen this condition on numerous occasions:it probably has a dietetic origin. It was principally found in adult breeding boars aged 12 to 18 months but it did occur in females, and was seen in animals as young as 3 months. Characteristically, deposits of calcium were found in the myocardium, in the stomach wall, and in the kidneys, but the most striking picture was seen at the flexure of the colon, where massive calcification extending distally from this point for 25 or 38 mm was so severe as to cause a marked degree of bowel occlusion. As this occlusion developed, so the passage of food through the gut was slowed down. There was a steady loss of bodily condition, and the animal eventually died. The condition disappered when diet Q.G.P. was substituted for Diet 18. It was thought at first that the more regular intake of vitamin D and the narrowing of the calcium:phospherous ratio were effectively preventing the deposition of calcium in the soft tissue; more recent studies, however, have indicated that the condition does not occur when there is a balanced interrelationship beteen magnesium, calcium and phosphorous (Wickham, 1958: Maynard et al., 1958) and it is more likely that the addition of minerals containing an adequate amount of magnesium was responsible for the improvement.

References : Wickham,N. (1959) Calcification of soft tissues associated with dietary magnesium deficiency in the guinea-pig
Aust. vet. J., 34, 244-8
Maynard., Boggs., Fisk., Seguin (1958) , Dietary mineral inter-relations as a cause of soft tissue calcification in guinea-pigs. J. Nutr., 64, 85.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:04 pm


more recent studies, however, have indicated that the condition does not occur when there is a balanced interrelationship beteen magnesium, calcium and phosphorous (Wickham, 1958: Maynard et al., 1958) and it is more likely that the addition of minerals containing an adequate amount of magnesium was responsible for the improvement.
That is really interesting. I wonder if Becky could somehow adjust the ca/ph table to reflect an appropriate balance of magnesium? And I wonder just how much magnesium they're talking about?

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:55 pm


Our vet at K-State gave a much higher dose of metacam - I am pretty sure we were allowed to give up to 1.25 mL a day. I am convinced that this made a huge difference in our pigs' ability to pass stones because of the tremendous reduction in inflammation.

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:30 pm


Thanks for all the info. We don't have Excel here, so my husband will check out the calculator at work. Regarding the metacam, since most of you have recommended it, I'll just keep him at the .15 CC daily dose. It seems to help him. We also decided to switch all the pigs to bottled water to see if that does anything. Peppi has been acting his usual self, at least, so I'm happy about that. I was cleaning the kitchen today (they live in the extended "eat in" area) and he was bugging me for a treat the whole time by walking back and forth and standing at the bars and staring at me.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:28 pm


capybara, you can download open office for free online.
http://www.openoffice.org/

I think it has an excel type thing you can use.

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:14 am


How's your little guy?

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:21 am


Thank you for asking! It's so kind of you--one reason I love this board.

Peppi has been doing ok. He has bad days every once in a while where he isn't as active, and seems to be feeling crummy. He has lost some more weight and is usually around 1025-1000 grams. A couple weeks ago he had pink urine, so we had him on Bactrim for 10 days to clear it up w/vet's advice. Most of the time he is his usual loud, spunky self. He's still getting Polycitra, shilintong, and Metacam daily. He loves his shilintong now! He also gets a lump of Critical Care every day for him to eat in his cage and he always looks forward to that.

He has an x-ray scheduled tomorrow morning to check what's going on, and we're really hoping that all of these things we've been trying have at least slowed or stopped the growth of his stone. It's been about 7 weeks since his second surgery, the same amount of time it took that giant stone to form between the first and second surgery. I'll let everyone know what we find out. I hope it's something good.

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Becky

Post   » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:41 am


Capybara, take a look at Chippy's history in the reference thread. You might want to talk to your vet about switching from metacam to piroxicam.

Here's a link to info about it:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_piroxicam.html

It's also an NSAID but has anti-tumor properties, particularly for bladder cancer. I'm not saying Peppi has or will develop tumors, but it could be preventative.

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:21 pm


I have some sad news. Poor Peppi's x-ray showed 2 large stones. They're right next to each other and together, they are about as big as the second stone he had removed in surgery. Seeing those things in his bladder really made me wish we could get another surgery, but Dr. Voss said the second surgery was more difficult as adhesions were beginning to form in and around the bladder, and he assumed even more would have formed after the second surgery. Even though we didn't plan to do a third surgery anyway, that information made us decide to definitely not go through any more.

Becky, I'm very sorry about Chippy. We did ask about the piroxicam. He had never given it to a guinea pig before, but he trusts us and gave us 3 tablets. (They only had it in tablet form.) He thought about one tenth of a tablet would be the correct does for Peppi's weight and suggested crushing a tablet and putting it in 10 ml of water and giving him 1 ml would be the best way to give it. Does that sound ok? I know we should not give this and Metacam at the same time.

So now we will just do our best to make him happy and comfortable for the rest of his days. We had been giving a very limited amount of pellets, but since the decrease in pellets didn't seem to make a difference anyway, I think we'll be giving him more because he loves them so much. We'll also be continuing with all his meds because, strangely enough, he actually looks forward to them; even Polycitra! Maybe they will make some small difference. I dread the day where he feels so badly that we have to put him to sleep. I have never had to do this before, and haven't lost a pet since I was about thirteen years old, so I'm getting ready to be hit hard. If anyone has any advice, I would always be very grateful to hear it.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:49 pm


I am so sorry to hear about the returned stones. I know rimidyl crushes well and can be dosed suspended in water. You shake it first to make sure it is distributed well.

I wish you the best.

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Becky

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:39 pm


Oh, I'm very sorry about the stones, too. They are pure evil. Nothing more.

I haven't a clue as to dosing for the piroxicam. We never used it. My vet just said he would be changing protocol based on Chips necropsy and lab results. To be really honest with you, the stones are a much bigger concern for you and Peppi right now than the possibility of cancer. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh. It is a human drug. You probably could take it to a pharmacy that compounds drugs.

Piroxicam is a NSAID, so he wouldn't need the metacam. They act in the same way.

Boy, I sure wish you had gotten better news.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:56 pm


I'm very sorry to hear this news. If you are not giving him a whole shilintong tablet (crushed in water) per day you may want to up his dosage.

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Serena
It started with Louie...

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:39 pm


I am so sorry. This just brings back bad memories for me and I know what you are going through. Spoil him as much as you can. Give lots of pellets, parsley, or whatever he loves so much and try to enjoy him till the end. I was told that I will know when it is time to say goodbye and that was very true. You will see it in his eyes. I hope that won't be for a long time for you but when it does come, you are among friends here.

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:20 pm


Thank you all for your kind wishes. We'll do our best to keep him happy for as long as we can.

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:37 pm


Capybara, I'm so sorry that things aren't going well for Peppi. It's definitely not because of your lack of effort, I hope you know that. I'll bet Peppi knows you're doing everything you can for him, too.

Our guys send lots of piggy kisses. I hope you're able to keep Peppi comfortable for a long time.

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