Satins and bone loss--Attn: Hollister families

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deborah
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:02 am


KarenLC - posted on page 7 of the Sticky re Cavy Health Record Books. E mail her - I am sure she will be happy to explain in far more technical terms than I am able to do.

Pinta - she is desperate for lots of Xrays for the vets to study and I am sure your input will be invaluable to her.

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Becky

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:49 pm


I have to say, without the info on Shiraz, things would have been handled much differently with Elvis, I'm sure. The x-rays are pretty indisputable evidence. My copy didn't show them very well, but Dr. N. had no problems with telling me to use calcium lactate. I am, once again, grateful and impressed with Pinta's experience and knowledge.

I have to agree. The info in the article needs some explanation and I'll try to ferret it out. (Thanks for the info Deborah) What impressed me the most was just the fact that every satin showed bone density loss. That alone is hard to explain away in any way shape or form.

I'm wondering what sorts of supplementation was done that "didn't work." There are many differences in calciums, so that's where more information is needed. I know there's quite a bit information out there about cats and dogs, but they handle calcium in a different way.

I've already promised Dr. N. when Elvis' time comes, he can do all of the tissue and bone samples to add to the data.

Interesting stuff, that's for sure.

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lisam

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:13 pm


Yes, I'm sorry for the poor satins. I'm glad this information is coming to light. Did you know that another problem with satins is runts? Unless the breeders use non-satin blood from time to time the babies can be runts, and stay small their entire lives. I have one in my personal herd, and one of my rescue pigs is a very small satin boar.

Evangeline

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:00 pm


Can I just take a moment and say a great, big, fat HA! to those who called Pinta crazy when she first discovered Shiraz's calcium problem? Apparently, she was jumping to conclusions and making stuff up.

Ha! Ha! And HA!.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:48 pm


Don't forget that there are satins that do not have these problems. I think the article cited indicated that one line of satins was having problems. Some satins live perfectly normal lives. i.e. no black and white, E, no black and white. Ha to you. And this problem is not limited to a few families of satins, either.

Evangeline

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:57 pm


Well, I hadn't posted any names, but thank you for stepping forward.

I've heard of several new cases, lately, that were not posted on the board. Way too many for it to be coincidence. Several well known vets are now acknowledging and recognizing the problem, so it must not all be in Pinta's head after all.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:13 pm


I never thought her personal experiences with satins were in her head at all. I sent her a link to the article Deborah cited shortly after she sent it to me. What you have to remember is that not all satins will have this problem. Until you understand this, you will understand nothing.

Evangeline

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:18 pm


It's funny how you keep defending yourself like that. I don't know why you feel so threatened by all this. As I said, I haven't named any names.

No one ever claimed all Satins had bone problems. You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that and I don't think Pinta has, either. Please point me to a place where I said all Satins are affected. I dare you. Yeah, that's what I thought.

The fact remains that more and more people with sick Satins find out that there is, indeed, something wrong with their bones. Too many to be a fluke.

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:21 pm


Since Frizzle has sludge I couldn't supplement with calcium then?

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:23 pm


When you say "satins have bone problems" you are generalizing. So long as you want to generalize by using a qualifier by saying "some satins have bone problems", you're okay.

Evangeline

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:27 pm


Nice backpeddaling, there.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:34 pm


You don't have a grasp of the finer points of the English language. Many arguments turn on precisely how it is presented. This is one.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:37 pm


I don't think it was ever said it was just in my head. I think there was doubt that Shiraz was NOT an isolated case. But I can't possibly be the only person in the world to get pigs with weirdass health problems so I had a hunch Shiraz was the tip of the iceberg.

Most people don't have their pigs freeranging or have steps the pigs have to climb to get back home. Every single arthritis problem has been discovered by watching how well they take the stairs and pigs who used to come out a lot and then stop, usually have health issues as well.

I have a knack for filing weird bits of info until they merge together in an "Ahah" moment. Unfortunately the "Ahah" moment is not considered scientific so it can be like pulling teeth to get people to listen(heart issues being common in pigs was an Ahah moment).

Unless every satin is xrayed regularly, you can't say some satins have no bone problems. It's not like they tug at your shirt and say "my bones are achy so I'm going to be a bit of a sloth today". I think some satins might develop problems later in life than others and I think many will go undiagnosed because their owners aren't observant and mistake an inactive pig for an aging pig.

I had been leaning towards a specific line having a genetic problem but it seems too widespread for that to be true. Although Josephine has had many healthy satins that lived to an old age, unless they were all xrayed, even she wouldn't know the state of their bone density. And she did post that she did have a satin with bone issues on one of these satin threads.

The more common the breed becomes the more problems observant owners are more likely to find. If the owner isn't observant they won't know why "Shiny" died and write the death off to old age. Face it - the vast majority of pig owners don't get necropsies done or xrays or even take their pigs to the vet.

Because it looks like the problem might be related to the hair shafts(and I have collected enough bits of info for an "Ahah") I'm getting baseline xrays done of my skinnies who have a teddy thing happening with the hair they have. Bliss already has heart issues and Heart and Gretchen remain small. A dental xray of the hindleg won't need sedation and the vet can mark precisely how they are xraying so we can compare in 6 months(earlier if I see slow gaits).

When I get time(laugh hysterically) I'll try to get the study info but as it is I barely have time to log on here.

A friend with interests in dogs has told me they get calcium deficiency if the phosphorous is out. I can't remember if she said too much is the problem or too little. But with satins it might be a breed thing - in order for a hollow hair shaft to be created, the body can't use calcium properly. Just wildly guessing here.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:43 pm


HollyT - has Frizzle been xrayed to show bone problems? If she does have calcium depletion and bladder sludge, that could be an indication the body is casting off calcium and it's landing in the bladder(again - just guessing - might be out to lunch).

Considering the pain of calcium depletion and the risk of bone breaks - I'd supplement and do twice daily hydration subcues. And check via xray in a month to see if the bones are filling in and the sludge is better or worse.

I don't know how polycitra fits into the equation but if your vet okays it, might be worth trying.

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:49 pm


Yes she has. My vet thought she was an elderly pig and she's only 2 1/2. Her ribs are in terrible shape compared to a year ago. We've done the subq's and had her urine tested again but sludge is the same.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:57 pm


When I think about the fraud perpetrated on guinea pig lovers that breeders and the ACBA care at all about the long term (or less) health of cavies, it kills me. Shiny pigs, hairless pigs, what other problems have they introduced or intensified? Worth keeping track of satins certainly. I do think not all are at risk. I do hope they are not all at risk. Discouraging.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:58 pm


If she was my pig, I'd supplement. Some pigs live well with sludge - the danger is if it forms into stones. I would gamble that supplemented calcium will be too busy going into the bones than to turn into stones.

There's no protocol since there is so little info. Basically we're stumbling blind here and building on experience. What hurts more? Sludge or bones? If bones hurt more treat them and hope you don't eff up the sludge problem.

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Becky

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:59 pm


All medical problems start being noticed somewhere. I'm sure there are lots of cases where something new, unusual or not in step with the common thinking were viewed with skepticism. It's important to explore all of the aspects of a new situation to understand it fully.

It also takes someone to describe it and get it out there. Once that happens, then others will notice, word gets out, connections are made, and more investigation takes place. That's what is so fabulous about a place like this. Whether or not a satin pig demonstrating these problems ends up being diagnosed with OD, the fact of the matter is, the pig guardian is armed with that information and can pursue it properly, instead of just saying it's vit. C deficiency, or dismissing it as a sign of old age.

My feeling is that given what I've seen here and my limited experience, I'd feel more than comfortable telling a person with a satin or rough coated pig to get an x-ray at the very first sign of difficulties.

Also, Pinta makes a good point. When your pigs are running around the room, it's much easier to see an increase in hopping or misstepping. Thinking back, Elvis started sitting down to eat all the time probably about a year ago. I thought it was strange, but didn't really make the connection then.

It really is a shame that breeders keep producing these specialty breeds. Elvis is a perfect example. He's a beautiful pig and people gravitate to him. That most certainly is why he was a breeder in Hollister. But if there is a genetic connection, then there's the possibility that many, many pigs will have to experience pain just to satisfy our love of something beautiful. Sad, indeed.

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Karen
Slug Whisperer

Post   » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:04 am


Question over here (waves hand)

All 24 of my pigs are rescues. I know different fur types, ie. peruvian, silkie, teddy, etc. but I wouldn't know a satin if it came up and bit me on the ass. How do you tell if it's a satin?

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Becky

Post   » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:10 am


Holly, that is a hard call. The calcium Frizzle would get from the supplement is different than the calcium in greens and other foods--or, I should say, it's processed differently. I'm really not sure what the effect it would have on her sludge.

I was just reading about the possible use of a very successful human supplement, calcitonin-salmon, that one exotics vet thinks would work on animals, exotics in particular. This is the article.

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/dvms/mbd2.html

Certainly something to discuss with your vet.

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