Satins and bone loss--Attn: Hollister families

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Becky

Post   » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:06 am


KK, there's only one compounding pharmacy in the East Bay. They're great, but in Berkeley, so a pain to get to them, and they're outrageously expensive. We're doing OK so far. Thanks for the info, though.

Does a satin pup from a non-satin x satin breeding have a greater chance of issues that a non-satin pup from a non-satin x satin breeding?

Leebee's Francine (if she's Elvis' baby) is non-satin from non-satin x satin. Her x-ray was OK. There's a possibility we'll be able to get an x-ray of Francine's litter mate who is a satin male. That should be pretty interesting.

Maybe you know/remember this. Were there any other adult male satin pigs in the bunch?

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lisam

Post   » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:19 am


I'm with Pinta--I'm betting that only the pigs that actually show the satin coat will have the problems, but I don't know that much about the genetics of guinea pig coat types. Whether satin is a recessive trait or a dominant one will have a bearing on it.

Keeping tabs on the non-satin offspring would certainly help to shed some light on it.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:10 pm


Satin is pure recessive. A "non" satin from one satin parent on paper MUST have one satin gene. That's 99.9% of the time. A few mutate and don't get the gene like it says on paper. I had a satin carrier pop out of two satin parents. Typically, that breeding should have resulted in 100% satin pups.

The only way I know how to tell satin carriers right now is through test breedings (which we won't do due to the ramifications). I don't know anyone who is doing genetic testing on satin genes for cavies. I'd love to know if there is such a place.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:10 pm


I was just wondering about all of this genetic stuff. So that would mean that my Daisy and Poppy are carriers, but should be OK as far as their bones go because they are not satins. Their brothers, however, are not OK.

Is it just coincidence that of the 5 pups Buffy had, the 3 baors were satins and the two sows were not? The satin gene is not sex linked is it?

Now I AM worried about Bumble, my Teddy!

Becky, let me know if N would like x-rays of Poppy and Daisy. With Kirk laid off right now I can't afford to just take them in.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:31 pm


As far as I've seen, the satin carriers never seem to have the same problems the satins do. That is probably due to "hybrid vigor" of some sort. They only have one recessive gene, not two like satins. It is in general when two recessive genes hook up that there is increased potential for other "recessive" type or mutated genes to be somehow linked to those genes. Not everything is really well understood. As far as we know, there is no sex-linkage or predisposition to specific sex with the satin gene.

So what was Buffy? Satin carrier? I can do Punnett Squares if so desired. Normal coated animals are SnSn, satins snsn, and carriers Snsn if I remember the correct character.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:08 am


Buffy was non-satin. Elvis, obviouly a satin. So, Buffy must be a Snsn and Elvis snsn. Wouln'd that make only one in four of their off -spring a satin? Or am I failing my genetics class!? They had 3 satins snsn and two non-satins which I assume are Snsn.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:01 am


No, sorry. On paper 50% should be satin carriers Snsn (or maybe it's less confusing with fewer letters? Ss) and 50% should be snsn (ss) satins. On paper, you know.

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Becky

Post   » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:42 pm


It's interesting that the two litters we most strongly suspect as being Elvis' babies, there were male satins but no female satins.

Any chance that since the male was satin, only the males exhibited it, while the females didn't?

I know nothing about genetics. It's the reason I gave up entomology in college. It made my head hurt.

pinta

Post   » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:46 pm


I met Shiraz's mother. She was a red abby, no sign of being a satin. Shiraz was a dark chocolate(faded black for E) smooth hair with an irridescent white blaze. That's how we knew she was a satin. Her dark fur was so dark it was hard to see the satin. But the tops of her dark feet glowed.

She had a littermate that was an abby and didn't show any signs of being a satin. Her mom was a pet store pig that came to the owners already pregnant.

ktn

Post   » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:25 pm


Just wanted to add an article that might be relevant, also in the same website posted here before: http://www.rspcareadingguineapigs.co.uk/index_files/caviesarticle.htm

I'm having similar problems at the moment (so I hope it's appropriate posting a mention here) with my satin 2 year old girl currently weak on one rear leg. She's not using it much, hopping around like a rabbit sometimes. I'm going to (on advice from others here) give calcium supplements, and vitamin C too and see if it helps. I've already spoken to a vet and they are saying the same thing for now before doing xrays and all...wish us luck!

pinta

Post   » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:37 pm


NO - get an xray before giving calcium supplements. The sooner you diagnose the problem, the sooner you can aggressively treat it. If she just has arthritis you could be introducing new problems like bladderstones by giving calcium and denying her the pain meds she needs.

At last we have a problem we can definitively see in an xray and friggin vets are bypassing the opportunity. To say it pisses me of is an understatement. Stop screwing around with "maybe" treatments and check to see if bone density loss IS the problem.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:14 am


Becky, that's exactly what I was saying. I wonder why the boars were so stongly satin and yet the sows are not.

Every odd day in an odd light, I swear Daisy (PEW) has a satin hair or two. Just something about the way they shimmer. But, I would NOT say she is a satin.

Just to toss a wrench in the works, Daisy is also my pig that many months ago had a limping problem with her front paw. I took her in and N thought it was a soft tissue injury. It went away, came back a week or so later, went away again and has been gone since.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:22 am


Jo, yes, I get it. I worked out one of the little squares with Sn sn and sn sn. Yes, 1/2 would be Snsn (satin) and 1/2 would be snsn (non-satin).

So... Buffy's litter of 5 was right on actually. Just odd that the satin/non-satin went along with the sexes too. I've always said of that litter thata the boys were super fancy and the sows were so ordinary... a broken cream and a PEW! PEW's, however, seem pretty uncommon to me now. I think out of all the Hollister pups we only had 3 or 4, one of them being mine.

KarenLC

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:50 am


In response to an email from Pinta I thought I'd better visit and post. firstly, I only became involved in this study around Easter (though I knew there were problemswith Satins)
From what I have read about supplements here I will reword what is on the site. The intention was that people should not over supplement Ca to a pig that may have OD as they cannot absorb it, I see that it may be more complex than that now...

Everything I have on the Berlin Study is in the Cavies article http://www.rspcareadingguineapigs.co.uk/index_files/caviesarticle.htmwritten by Desiree from the Netherlands. Because
we have no more info we have to do this all ourselves.
It is my intention to get as much info for 'Joe Public' who may own a Satin (and not even know it). If breeders decide not to breed them along the way then that is good too.
No Satin will leave my rescue without an xray (depending on age) and complete info for the new owners. I have two of my vets interested in this already and others are also becoming involved.
Pinta, (or anyone) what is the relationship (if any) between Osteoartritis and Osteodystrophy? Could OD be causing the bone density loss?

Just for the record, so far it is only Satinised guineas that have shown OD and we are looking at xrays of both.
Currently we are collecting xrays of all pigs and numbers wise it is terribly unscientific, but we will see what we end up with.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:01 am


Were the satins in the study related? Somewhere along the way I got the impression that it was a line of satins, not necessarily all of them.

Too bad we don't have tons of genetic info to see if there is another factor besides being satin that may be involved.

KarenLC

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:11 am


Lynx, I will check, but I don't belive they were and there was a control group of non-satins done too. Certainly the ones that are being x-rayed now are not related.
Unfortunately the people in Berlin have moved on.

DNA testing would be the way to go maybe, but too expensive.

pinta

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:15 am


The intention was that people should not over supplement Ca to a pig that may have OD as they cannot absorb it

Shiraz, a satin, was supplemented with calcium lactate, which her bones did absorb(proven with xrays). Some calcium is not as readily absorbed as other types. Her definitive diagnosis from a bone culture was Paget's Disease which is indicated by massive jaws, lowered immune system and calcium leeching form bones and redistributing forming clubbed bones. Her first sign of the disease was "rottweiler" jaws. Cacium supplementation completely reversed the loss of bone density but couldn't solve the lowewred immune system. A standard URI killed her.

Although Paget's Disease is not the same as osteopetrosis(her first diagnosis) it is in the same family leading me to believe bone density loss can be reversed with the right kind of calcium. She did require very large doses and I believe when we tried backing off, she immediately started losing weight again(would have to doublecheck thread).

I don't know the relationship between any of these diseases(Josephine would) but am convinced the loss of bone density is directly related to the diseases and I have a hunch the hair type is a symptom of the problem and that whatever affects the bone density also affects the hair shaft resulting in kinked, frizzy or glowing hair.

pinta

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:16 am


How did your vets diagnose OD?

KarenLC

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:24 am


Diagnosis was by x-ray.

pinta

Post   » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:30 am


Shiraz's initial diagnosis was by xray but the bone culture done at necropsy resulted in a different diagnosis. If it's by xray, I think you can only assume diagnosis. There appears to be a wide range of diseases that are evidenced by bone density loss.

The vet who diagnosed Shiraz's xrays is considered one of the top animal radiologists(if not the top) in Vancouver.

What precisely are the symptoms of OD? You can copy directly from your website if you want - it would be handy to have all the info in one spot for people following this thread.

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