Henry's Thread

Post Reply
TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:36 am


We also wonder if there is some sort of low-grade viral or bacterial infection that might make a pig more likely to develop stones - and thus something that could be spread from pig to pig?

User avatar
JoePig

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:09 pm


The last time our bladder stone pig had surgery, we had a a culture done. I do not know why we never had one done before as the little guy had a staph infection. It was treatable, but not by the oral antibiotics we were using!

Considering how messed up this pig was when we first got him and how early on he got bladder stones, I wonder if he hadn't had this staph infection the whole time.

User avatar
JoePig

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:21 pm


Question/Request for clarification in the Records Forum:
In Protocol #1 and Protocol #3 could a small piece of information be added for people like myself? (Alright, idiots, dummies, knuckleheads, etc.) If this is possible, Thanks!

In Protocol #1 it reads:
Mix 1 300 mg capsule in 4 mL of liquid. Administer 0.25 cc's of this once a day for 4 days. After that, administer 0.15 cc's of this daily.
Could it be added "Mix 1 300 mg capsule {WHAT} in 4 mL of liquid {WHAT}.

In Protocol #3 it reads:
Henry started out on 0.5 mL of a 150 mg/mL compound for eight days. After that, he has been on a maintenance dose of 0.5 mL of a 75 mg/mL compound once a day.
Could that also be updated to say "Henry started out on 0.5 mL of a 150 mg/mL compound {OF WHAT?} for eight days. After that, he has been on a maintenance dose of 0.5 mL of a 75 mg/mL compound {OF WHAT} once a day. (Note: 1 mg/mL = x cc's)

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:20 pm


I keep coming back to the idea my vet found that was pretty glossed over as crazy here, oxalobacter. It's a tiny aneorobic bacteria that's supposed to metabolize oxalic acid. It's highly sensitive to fluoroquinolone antibiotics (Baytril, cipro, etc). Since gut bacteria are populated from the mother, if mom were treated with a fluoroquinolone, especially in some stupid way like constant low doses in the drinking water, the pups could then be at high risk of stones because they're born never metabolizing oxalic acid properly without the bacteria since they couldn't acquire it from mom. Not only would this explain "heritable" differences, it would explain regional frequencies too since pigs in a given area are likely to a) be related and b) come from the same crappy mill. Maybe it's stupid and crazy, but it doesn't seem illogical.

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:38 pm


So the fluoroquinolone antibiotics nurture the growth of oxalobacter?

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:16 pm


No the antibiotics kill the oxalobacter, so oxalic acid isn't metabolized and is then excreted in the urine and causes problems. At least, in theory. You know, there was a publication that I found free full text online. I'll see if I can find you a link.

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:27 pm


If you go to Pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez) and search "oxalobacter" you can read abstracts that describe the concept. The same articles I found are still online. They have a little green line "Free article in PMC."

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:54 pm


Interesting. So treating for respiratory infections could set up guinea pigs for stones? But wouldn't that mean anyone who was treated with antibiotics (humans) would get stones too?

Perhaps comparing healthy, never medicated pigs with others living in a similar environment?

User avatar
Bytxlaura
Remembering Nemo

Post   » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:45 am


Sef, if you take the amount of pellets fed into consideration, I - from my experiences - would rule it out. I have fed 1/8 cup of Oxbow every two days per pair of pig (2 of them) for 3 years and have switched to KM when one pig developed stones and 3, potentially 4, developed sludge. They currently get one tablespoon of KM per pair every two days. Veggies twice a day and unlimited hay (different kinds - bluegrass, timothy, sweet meadow). I'm keeping my fingers crossed the diet change helps :)

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:12 am


Perhaps it's only the fluoroquinolone antibiotics and something about guinea pig biochemistry?

Our first two pigs were treated for respiratory thing before they were a year old, but our vet, who wasn't as knowledgeable back then, treated them with...oh, my brain is blanking out. An antibiotic that's actually better suited to gut problems. Anyway, Sully developed his first stone about eight months later, and then Gilbert developed his about six months after that.

Henry was treated with TMS and Baytril at one point, and developed stones about two years later.

Widget was never treated with antibiotics by me before developing a stone, but I can't say if the rescue may have treated him.

Tom started showing signs of a URI the day we brought him home, so he was treated with TMS.

User avatar
sef1268

Post   » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:33 am


Of our stone pigs (Sidney, Zachary, Sebastian and now Otis), only Sidney and Zachary were on Bactrim for various things. Sidney came to us a URI; quickly cleared up after a single round of Bactrim. Zachary was on Bactrim and-on-off for about a year and a half for what we thought was I/C.

Bassy was never on AB's (and we got him very young), and neither was Otis.

It's interesting, though, and I do want to read the article when I get a chance. I wonder if there is a connection between the fact that Zachary had numerous, very aggressive stones (forming at an alarming rate) and was on Bactrim for an extended period of time.

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:16 am


Sef, Bactrim wouldn't be an issue. It's only Baytril and similar meds which actually means it isn't as big of a risk to humans since this class of antibiotics still isn't prescribed all that often and is never given to children. What I imagine is early exposure or a life-long absence of the bacteria (i.e. mom was treated heavily prior to pregnancy) would be more likely to cause stones, especially if combined with poor diet. LOTS of pigs are treated with Baytril. Considerably fewer develop stones so there has to be another factor that goes in there too.

So if Bassy and Otis's mom was treated they could have been born with no ability to acquire this bacteria at all. It occurs naturally in the feces of birds apparently so "wild" cavies get it through eating seeds and dirt on occasion. Domestic cavies only have hereditary exposure through mom to populate good gut bacteria.

User avatar
sef1268

Post   » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:32 am


This is fascinating stuff. I haven't had a chance to read the info in that link yet, but I'm definitely interested and want to understand it better.

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:18 pm


Henry seems to have developed a fungal infection under his eye. Is this something we can treat topically? Or does it have to be oral? Also, do we need to treat Frost, too?

User avatar
dgarriques
Got Pigs?

Post   » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:19 pm


Oh I wonder how he could of gotten that?

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:26 pm


No idea. It seemed like he had been losing a tad of fur under his eye, but it was so slight, it was almost like we were imagining it. But it looks very much like this one, from the medical reference page:

Image

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:49 pm


My bet is you can treat it topically if you wish, but it'll require something from the vet. Terramycin is supposed to have some antifungal properties but I have no idea how well it truly works. You can always order some Program and see if it helps before investigating other avenues. I have NO idea what other kinds of eye drops/ointments exist for fungus but surely there are right?

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:23 am


I worry about using anything more that needs to be taken orally only because Henry is on Actigall, and I have no idea about interaction issues.

User avatar
sef1268

Post   » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:33 pm


This is unrelated to the eye issue, and I don't know why this popped into my head today (after losing Otis on Monday, I guess I've been re-examining everything in their environment) -- what type of water bottles do you use, TWP? Plastic or glass?

User avatar
TWP_2

Post   » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:32 pm


We have always used plastic bottles. The water is changed with fresh filtered water each day, and the bottles are rinsed with hot water at the water change.

Post Reply
658 posts