Subcue questions

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Thanks for the Memories

Post   » Tue May 15, 2007 8:04 pm

Fed her something at the time to distract her. I put a towel on the table and Mr. RS held Steve still so I could dispense the fluids. Butterfly needles should help quite a bit. Also, make sure the water is a comfortable warm, not just slightly warm. I tested on my wrist. Steve was much less happy when I didn't warm it enough.

Good luck with her.

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Post   » Tue May 15, 2007 8:19 pm

To my knowledge, you need an Rx to get needles in California, although I seem to recall Leebee having a source that didn't ask for an Rx.

It really was simple, though. I had Adobe fax the company an Rx and they keep it on file. Very simple, actually.

You can quote me

Post   » Tue May 15, 2007 8:34 pm

"The needle size is 20x1A ... "

I am not a med person but I'm going to guess that's 20-gauge. Too large IMHO. I'd try 23 (or 21 if there is a 21).

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Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 12:16 am

Serena seems to be a little perkier than she was. I am actually getting the whole 30 mls. in now. I am not too worried for her health right now, just can't wait until I don't have to stab her anymore.

What size needles have other people used? The ones I've been using seem to work fine. It's pretty hard squeezing that plunger. If it was much smaller, I would think it would be harder in that way. But thinner seems friendlier.

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I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 9:21 am

I use 25 or 23 - usually 25.

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Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 1:02 pm

Looks like I'll be going back to the vet with my Hollister kid, Dahlia. (I just found something that feels like a pea under the skin on her chest.) I'll ask about smaller needles and butterfly sets then.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 3:31 pm

Needles are not Rx in CA, but I guess butterfly caths usually are? I haven't checked the veterinary supply places. They are harder to get (the butterfly caths).

Butterfly caths generally come in odd-numbered sizes: 19, 21, 23, 25 gauge, although I have seen a few companies have the even-numbered sizes. Likewise, in needles, the even sizes are more common--18, 20, 22, etc, except we do usually have 25 g in stock also.

I use 25 g needles for all injections (antibiotics or other) of medications and usually blood draws (or sometimes a 22). 21 g butterfly caths are what I use for SQ fluids on a cavy and I use 18 g needles to draw the solution into the syringe. I like to poke my animals with sharp needles, so every injection uses 2 needles: one to draw up the solution/medicaton and one to poke the pig.

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Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 8:02 pm

Hey! I got my butterfly sets today. So, I'll need 21 G needles?

(The stupid mailman balled up the envelope before stuffing it in the box. Jerk.)

I freaked out this morning and just couldn't do her subcues. She was freaked out, so I was freaked out. I syringed a bunch of water into her and ran off to work.

I am glad I have an appointment Friday morning. I want smaller needles now.


Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 9:29 pm

I just thought I'd add my 0.005 cent. :) I do subcues alone with squirmy pigs and I use a box. It's a narrow box, so piggie can't turn around and I make it the right length with cans of food. I keep my left hand on the pig/needle with my right hand pushing the fluids. If piggie starts fidgeting or hopping after a couple minutes, I check to make sure the fluid isn't getting trapped between the layers of skin (forming a firm/tight ball of fluid) and reposition the needle if so.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 11:28 pm

Great! It only took one day, so that was fabulous.

No, the needles on the butterfly caths are attached.

IF you want to do my method of using a separate needle to draw up the fluid, then another to use on the pig, you can use a standard needle (18 G is the biggest easily available usually) to draw up the fluids, then put on the butterfly to administer the fluids.

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Post   » Tue May 22, 2007 9:18 am

I apologize for hi-jacking this thread, but I'm attempting subcues on one of our boars who is ill (Sebastian), and it's the first time I've had to do this. Same as with Zoe, my vet sent me home yesterday with 20-gauge needles, a few smaller gauge ones (not sure of the gauge) and a large syringe. She told me not to do more than 10cc's a day. After double-checking a few minutes ago on the subcue page here, it seems this is really only a third of what I should be giving-??

I used the smaller gauge needles this morning and managed to get about 6cc's into the pig, but yikes -- it took forever. Went much faster at the vet's with the larger needle, but I'm sure it was pretty unpleasant.

Does it go faster with a butterfly? Or about the same as using a thin-gauge needle on a syringe? Is there any other advantage to a butterfly vs. just using a needle and syringe?

Finally, what is the shelf life of lactated ringers?


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Supporting my GL Habit

Post   » Tue May 22, 2007 9:42 am

I don't know if it goes faster with a butterfly, but I find its easier, simply because it doesn't matter if the pig squirms a little. The needle is independent of the syringe (to some extent), and I find it easier to focus on getting the fluids in and not worry that I'm hurting her as much.

Once a bag of ringers has been opened, I've been told to use it within weeks.


Post   » Tue May 22, 2007 11:13 am

When warming, its better to place the whole (sealed) syringe in a cup of warm-hot water. It warms the fluid more thoroughly rather than just on the surface. Some people run it under hot water for a few minutes. Of course, always drip a few drops in yourself to make sure you didnt over do it.

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I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue May 22, 2007 11:24 am

If you could only get 6ccs in I suspect your needle wasn't in properly. Sometimes you have to wriggle it around to get it going.

I put very hot water in a large measuring cup and then drop the whole thing in. Since I use butterflies, I can just drop in the syringe and leave the needle hanging out away from the water.

I can't do subcues properly without butterfly sets - I can't seem to keep the pig still enough.


Post   » Tue May 22, 2007 4:36 pm

The amount of fluids depends on the size of the pig and how dehydrated he/she is. 20 ccs daily is the average for a 1 kg pig. 20ccs twice daily is normal for pigs with bladder or kidney issues who need a lot of flushing.

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Post   » Wed May 23, 2007 7:42 am

Thanks, pinta. I had noticed that VCG Richardson states, "Up to 20ml can be given on any one occasion." A little unclear to me if by "occasion" he meant per day, or per injection. My vet told me that adminstering more than 10cc's might put too much stress on the heart(?). Sebastian weighs right at 1kg.

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Post   » Wed May 23, 2007 10:18 am

You've seen ? I think Josephine mentioned 30cc 2X a day as max.

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Post   » Wed May 23, 2007 10:56 am

I did see that -- which is why I wondered about the 10cc's my vet advised me to give once daily. It seemed low, but now I understand that the higher "max dose" would be appropriate for kidney pigs.

I got a packet of 22 gauge needles yesterday to use instead of the 20's I was given, but something happened this morning during the subcue. Sebastian went absolutely ballistic screaming and flailing, and then kept doing a sort of "hiccup" afterwards when I stopped. What the heck did I do wrong??? No blood that I could see, but I ran him over to the vet in a panic. He seemed fine again by the time we got there. Does it sound like I jabbed a nerve (this was at his neck scruff), or do you think he just got too worked up? Vet said the site looked fine, and she listened to his heart and checked reflexes. It scared the living crap out of me. She gave him another 10cc's and he was perfectly cooperative. Even though she assured me I did it correctly, I'm still worried that I did something wrong.

I had warmed the solution first, and it felt fine. The needle was labeled 22-gauge/1 inch, but after I compared it to the 20-gauge/1 inch needles the vet had given me, it actually looked longer. Could it have been too long? Should I switch to a 3/4" length?

I was nervous about giving subcues before, but this certainly didn't boost my confidence at all.

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Post   » Wed May 23, 2007 4:37 pm

I am still convinced that I am doing something really mean to Serena. She complains a lot. The butterfly sets and 22 gauge needle really improved things for me, but I can still tell she doesn't like being stabbed and pumped with fluids.

I give 30 cc's, but a few times, I just gave her 20.

I am glad my thread was hijacked. I like to hear what other people are going through with this subcue business. It seems so unnatural to pump such a huge amount of anything into such a small animal, especially when they scream!

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Post   » Wed May 23, 2007 8:14 pm

My husband said, after this morning's episode, that he will NOT help me with subcues again.

Just as well, I guess. He made me even more nervous.

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