Sebastian Thread

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Tracis
Let Sleeping Pigs Lie

Post   » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:41 pm


I'm so happy that he's eating and drinking again. Hopefully your husband is right, and Bassy's leg is just sensitive from the vet visit.

Did your vet think the stone was small enough to pass through his system?

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sef1268

Post   » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:03 am


Thanks tracis. No, the stone is too large to pass. I do notice that he's crying a little and lifiting his bottom when he poops this morning, which is something he wasn't doing before.

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sef1268

Post   » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:10 pm


Bad morning. After feeding, Sebastian starting hunching and crying and seemed unable to pass urine. Our vet wasn't in, but her colleague squeezed us in between other appointments so we rushed him there around 10:30. When we got there, he palpated the bladder and said it didn't appear that the stone was blocking things completely (Bassy did pass frequent, small amounts of urine while we were there), but that it may have shifted and could be positioned just at the opening of the bladder now.

Dr. J suggested giving Torb for pain management, and to monitor closely for the next 24 hours. He gave an initial injection, which seemed to quiet Bassy quite a bit, and another subcue. Gave me a liquid suspension of Torb to take home and administer every 12 hours.

I'm confused about the dosing, though. It seems a little low. Can someone double-check this for me?

Bassy weighs just over 1kg. Dr. J has set the dosage at .2cc. The concentration on the bottle says "5mg/2cc." This would obviously be 2.5/1cc. So here is my calculation:

What he should be getting, based on dose calculator:
2mg/kg (standard dose) x 1kg (weight) / 2.5mg/kg (concentration) = .8

What he's actually getting:
.2cc (prescribed dose) x 2.5 (concentration) / 1kg (weight) = .5

Also, medication pages also say 4q, but Dr. J is going with 12q.

Thanks.

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sef1268

Post   » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:50 pm


Actually, looking at my calculations above, I think I'm totally off. The "recommended dose" is .8, but what he's ACTUALLY getting is .2cc's.

The .5 that I got when reverse-calculating it, would tell me how much he's getting -- not what dose.

That seems like quite a difference between .2cc and .8cc. Not familiar with Torb to know if a lower dose is indicated for this type of pain (vs., say, surgery), but that seems like an awfully small amount.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:39 pm


In our experience butorphanol works linearly -- that is, a little has a minor effect, and more has more.

The GL analgesia page specifies "2 mg/kg, SQ, q2-4h, (1,2)". That's an injectable (SQ) dose. Sometimes there's a dosage difference based on mode of delivery (and I can't recall if butorphanol is one of them).

Having said all that, I'd start him at the low dose -- the 0.5 mg, or 0.2 cc. See how he feels. You don't want to knock him out for any longer, or dope him up any more, than is necessary to make him comfortable.

In our experience Torb makes them sleep for somewhere between 3 to 5 hours. Then, they wake up hungry, with the munchies, so to speak. I'm taking a guess that your vet doesn't want him to sleep that long, or that deeply. A lower dose will hopefully rest him a little, help make him comfortable, and make him eager to eat.

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sef1268

Post   » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:17 pm


Thanks, Talishan. Very good information. So you would say that the Torb was a pretty good choice in this case? This is not my normal vet, and I don't have the same comfort level with him yet. I will say, though, that Bassy urinated a very decent amount this evening while I was handfeeding him, with no crying or hunching (still looks a little pink).

I'll stick with the lower dose, then.

Are there any concerns with him being on Bactrim, Prednisone and the Torb simultaneously from a GI standpoint?

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sef1268

Post   » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:44 am


I need to do some major reading today about kidney stones, but I have a question in the meantime. I've seen differing opinions on this, but the vet mentioned upping Bassy's vitamin C intake. Good idea?

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sef1268

Post   » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:48 pm


Bumping this up to see if anyone has any thoughts on the vitamin C issue. Vet mentioned that increasing vitamin C can sometimes help with stones. He's getting CC twice a day...not really interested in pellets (it seems to go in cycles). I have been giving him an Oxbow C tablet once a day, as of this past Sunday.

Urine output seems good, although there still seems to be a very little bit of discomfort when he eliminates. Nothing like it was on Saturday. He's still on Bactrim for any secondary infection, plus the Torb at .2cc twice a day, as well as Prednisone at .5cc every 3 days. As of this evening, still has a good appetite as far as his veggies and hay are concerned, drinking on his own, active, and producing normal feces. He had a nice, big pee right after handfeeding this evening that looked clear.

Husband and I were wondering if there's a chance that he may have passed the stone-? Probably wishful thinking on our part, but after what was obviously a very painful episode on Saturday morning, he has been more like his old self.

Should I get another x-ray? And, I had asked this earlier but I don't think anybody commented...is there such a thing as too many x-rays? The one last week that found the stone was, I believe, the 5th xray since May.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:53 pm


I would be tempted to wait if I were in your shoes.
I think a rabbit article in the Quesenberry book claimed vitamin supplementation seemed to be associated with stones in rabbits so I can't say additional C (more than what is needed) is what I'd try.

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sef1268

Post   » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:56 pm


See, that's what I thought I had read, too, Lynx. I just started the Oxbow tablets this weekend, so perhaps I should hold off for now.

Do you have any thoughts about the number and frequency of xrays?

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:54 am


All I know is that stones can form in a couple weeks. Things change. It is up to you if you want additional xrays. They certainly will provide information but I see your frustration in getting so many.

You could wait until there is clear pain/problems in the hopes that a stone or something was passed. But of course that would be speculation. Perhaps discussing the value and timing of the xrays with your vet would be the best choice.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:53 pm


You could break the Oxbow tablets in half. That's 25 mg. To me that's not 'excessive extra', so to speak, combined with his regular vegetables, if you want to boost his C a little.

"Are there any concerns with him being on Bactrim, Prednisone and the Torb simultaneously from a GI standpoint?"

I don't *think* so. The only GI interaction to avoid at all costs, that I know of, is a steroid and an NSAID. That is, right now you can't add Metacam or Rimadyl into the mix. Josephine would know for sure.

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sef1268

Post   » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:32 pm


I was thinking of doing that exact thing, Talishan (giving him 1/2 tablet). Seems like a good compromise.

On a positive note, Bassy is no longer hopping. Seems it was just a muscle pull or a bruise on that leg where the lump is, after she drained it. So that's at least one good thing going for him right now.

I'm thinking of sending a urine sample over ot the vet tomorrow. Is it possible to tell if he still has a kidney stone based solely on the volume of crystals in the urine? (assuming not). I am just really reluctant to get another x-ray so soon, and yet I'd be curious to know if it has gotten smaller.

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somechick

Post   » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:33 pm


Nothing useful to add, but just letting you know Bassy's in my thoughts. It's great he's no longer hopping though. One less thing.

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sef1268

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:47 am


Thanks, SC.

I started Sebastian on Shilintong this weekend, since he continues to cry when he urinates and has bowel movements. He actually seems to like the taste of it mixed with a little CC. Go figure.

My question is, I'm noticing that he tends to cry *more* with a bowel movement than with urination. His poops are a normal size but are a little dry. He has had subcues and is drinking on his own...eating hay. Why am I still seeing dry poops? He hunches and cries whenever he produces them. I know that crying when defecating is symptomatic of kidney stones, but I'm trying to understand why and what can be done to help soften them. Was hoping he'd like canned pumpkin, but that was a no-go.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:27 am


I know that crying when defecating is symptomatic of kidney stones, but I'm trying to understand why and what can be done to help soften them.
You can't soften stones. They have to be removed, or - if you're very lucky - passed (which is much harder for males).

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sef1268

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:39 am


No, no...I meant, soften his stools. Sorry if I was unclear there. :)

pinta

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:28 pm


I'm thinking if his poops are normal size he probably isn't dehydrated since dehydrated pigs produce shrivelled poops. Could be his gut flora is off and he isn't producing the shiny poop coating a healthy pig would? Poop soup from a healthy pig wouldn't hurt.

Arthritis in the back also makes pigs cry when peeing or pooping.

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sef1268

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:59 pm


Thanks, Pinta. I think I'll give him some poop soup tomorrow. He's been on so many meds in the past several months...gut flora could well be off, even though I've supplemented with probiotics.

Arthritis doesn't seem to be a factor; he had a full-body xray done a couple of weeks ago, and nothing (other than the stone) remarkable showed up. A consulting vet was originally concerned with the possibility of cancer, but our vet didn't find any indication of that, either.

He passed a little blood this evening, which is the first time in days. :(

Continues to lose weight despite handfeeding. I'm not having a very good feeling about all of this.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:20 pm


I'm a little confused - I did read back in the thread, but I've clearly missed some pertinent points.

So he *does* have a stone, shown on xray, right?

Why does the vet not want to operate?

I'm not understanding this, because a stone would cause all the pain symptoms you're describing, and it sounds as if you're looking for another cause? Or am I missing something?

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