UK Piggy - Anselmo's Medical Thread

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Talishan
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Post   » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:31 am


"Living ones in pots"?

bpatters -- I think they have access to different lettuces than we do. I've never been to the Imperial Valley in California so I have NEVER seen a living head of lettuce.

Something still growing may very well have a lot more calcium in it than what we get, unless you grow your own. Just a guess.

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Jaycey
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Post   » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:14 am


http://www.theellieproject.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/lettuce.jpg

Here's something that is a living lettuce over here. Apparently they last longer if they're kept in the pot and watered. I can still kill them off quite easily still. And they seem to affect Anselmo's sludge output badly so the other two have them sometimes but not Anselmo.

Packet lettuce, with the mixed leaves like this one:

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=268307319

is a no for Anselmo. That makes him more sludgy.

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Jessie
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Post   » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:26 am


Sorry Talishan, I forget I'm not just chatting with UK folk sometimes. Here you can buy small trays of leaf lettuce still in soil (Baby leaf mix) or heads of lettuce with the roots still on. I stick with the Butterhead/Boston flat leaf lettuce (or Round lettuce as it's labelled in the shops). One shop does sell butterhead with the roots still on but doesn't have constant stock levels. Possibly tesco. It's the only lettuce (with roots/soil attached) that didn't have an adverse effect on Snowy's sludge.

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Lynx
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Post   » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:42 pm


I have seen the small butterhead lettuces sold here - still have dirt on the roots, in a small container.

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Jaycey
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Post   » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:06 am


Anselmo is booked with with the 'further away but better than my local vet' vet next Tuesday.

Sounds more promising already as they've asked which vet he went to previously so the can request his information in advance. Local vet didn't bother.

Let's see what he thinks of the different medication.

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Jaycey
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Post   » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:46 am


On the medical forum on Facebook I've been suggested a lack of Vitamin D (Anselmo doesn't get outdoors time), and Hyperparathyroidism, so I'll mention both of these on Tuesday.

Talishan
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Post   » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:01 am


Now I know what lettuce out of the ground looks like.

!!

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Jaycey
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Post   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:23 am


On Tuesday Anselmo saw the vet regarding his sludge and the possibility of trialling Bendrofluazide (Bendroflumethazide) on him.

The vet was absolutely fantastic. She gave him a good long check over and listened to his insides.

She pointed out that he is very noisy in the front half of his body, higher up than his lungs. The sound was odd, nothing like a URI sounds. She said that is was him vocalising and asked him he was a talkative boy. He is, he never shuts up and he spent the whole time with the vet chuntering away and complaining.

She had a look at all of his current medications and supplements and I updated her on his back story. I mentioned that the other vet at her practice has been in correspondence with brainerror’s colleague about the medicine

Whilst she had a look at Jon Snow (who I brought along because of his rumbly tummy) she took Anselmo out the back with his medicines for the other vet to look at and have a second opinion.

When he came back we discussed all of the medicines in detail.

The Bendrofluazide hasn’t really been used in guinea pigs and so she can’t guarantee it will work, or not make him worse. It could have an adverse effect on his kidneys. But, as he seems bright and lively, and after the conversation with BE’s colleague we’re going to have a trial of it. Unfortunately they don’t stock it so I’ll have to wait a week or so before we can start it.

She was very honest and said that “we” know little about stones and so it’s pretty much a stab in the dark. The only way we can see if it works is if his calcium spots on the fleece are less/gone.

She has suggested we continue with the Cystease/Cystassist and the Potassium, if we wish. Potassium would need to be taken in a massive dose to do anything but it’s not harming him.

We need to stop the Shilingtong (she can’t find a lot of info on what this does and so doesn’t want to mix it in) and the Oxbow Urinary Support (It says that the fibre helps urinary support. The vet said she doesn’t think great things about products that have the incorrect information on them)

I’ve probably forgotten something. I’ll add it in if I remember.

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Lynx
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Post   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:26 am


I hope the combination she comes up with helps. I am sure you know just generally reducing the amount of calcium in the bladder is supposed to help also. And extra fluids. Has she read the stones page here?

The Shilingtong has made a difference for some pigs.

Sounds like you have a thorough vet.

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Jaycey
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Post   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:28 pm


Yep, she's had a good read of Guinea Lynx. It's mentioned on their website.

Apparently the medicine is a diuretic so flushes the bladder more and hopefully will make him drink more. It also reduces the amount of calcium excreted in the urine.

My vet did ask an interesting question about this. If the calcium doesn't come out in the urine where does it go? Hopefully it is absorbed into his body!

I can't say for definite the Shilintong works but since he's had it he's not had a stone for 8 months, and it was 6 months between stones forming previously. That's a plus for Shilintong.

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Jessie
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Post   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:30 pm


From the wiki page on Thiazides.

"Thiazides also lower urinary calcium excretion, making them useful in preventing calcium-containing kidney stones. This effect is associated with positive calcium balance and is associated with an increase in bone mineral density and reductions in fracture rates attributable to osteoporosis. By a lesser understood mechanism, thiazides directly stimulate osteoblast differentiation and bone mineral formation, further slowing the course of osteoporosis.[13]"

bpatters
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Post   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:00 pm


But is that information on thiazides for humans, or for herbivores? You can't generalize from one to the other, because the urine is so different.

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Jaycey
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Post   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:46 pm


Sorry, I don't really understand stuff like this so I can't really add to the discussion. I guess it might help a little if he had an x-ray now and another after being on the medicine a while?. Would it show more bone density on an xray so quickly? I can mention it when I next see the vet and I still have a copy of an x-ray from the CCT taken earlier this year

But, the vet did mention that it has been trialled in rabbits with quite a good success rate.

Hopefully it'll help Anselmo. We're going to give it a couple of weeks and then discuss whether to continue or not.

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Jessie
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Post   » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:08 pm


From the science of it, the thiazide diuretic should increase calcium uptake by the body, which reduces output in the urine.

bpatters, apart from a couple of text book references, I've yet to find any information on thiazide diuretics referring specifically to guinea pigs. I found that to be a good basic explanation of how they are supposed to work.

Talishan
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Post   » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:29 pm


I guess it might help a little if he had an x-ray now and another after being on the medicine a while?. Would it show more bone density on an xray so quickly?"

Yes -- if the vet knows what to look for.

Even on a top-quality digital x-ray, you have to look really, really, REALLY close to see the loss of bone density, and then again to note it filling back in, if that's taking place.

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Jaycey
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Post   » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:32 am


Thanks Talishan. I'll mention it to the vet to see what they say.

When I mention calcium a number of people have mentioned Vitamin D. Anselmo doesn't really get any outdoor time, especially now as it's cold and also dark when I get up and get home from work.

So, I'm going to have a look into getting him a sun lamp.

And I've been looking into Vitamin D in tablet form.

Could someone check my workings for me?

According the pellets the other two get there is 1700iu /kg. According to Wikipedia 1iu in Vitamin D terms is 0.025ug

So 1700iu = 42.5ug in 1 kg

A serving of pellets should be 50g per day according to the packet.

So, they would be getting 2.125ug of Vitamin D a day.

I have tablets that had 12.5ug per tablet so that would be 6 doses (rounded up)

Sound right?

Also, would people go the tablets or lightbulb route?

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Lynx
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Post   » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:23 pm


I think there is a risk of vitamin D overdose. When I was looking into the baby bird food to use for my chicken, I saw a recall by Kaytee due to too much vitamin D. I think they listed some risks.

So if you do something like this, make sure it is accurately dosed.

Here are the signs of overdose in baby birds (do not know if they would be similar, just that it should be respected):
http://www.kaytee.com/pet-birds/veterinarian-questions.htm

Talishan
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Post   » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:55 pm


I'd try a full-spectrum bulb before the supplement. That's my opinion only.

Example

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Jaycey
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Post   » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:08 am


We've received the tablets from the vet. There's not many so I haven't started him on them yet as I'd probably need to get more over the Christmas period.

I'll probably start him on them this weekend or next. As there's no real sign that they'll work, and I don't want him on them unless they are helping I'm going to spend the next week of two really monitoring him.

I'll check his sludge output, see how much he's drinking and listen to him for squeaking. I want to know exactly what is "normal" for him.

About the Vitamin D, I've not given him any tablets. I've heard the Oxbow tablets have D in them , but they're high in calcium, of course!

I have a bulb and have used it 3 times since my last post, for about 10 minutes each time. The little bugger just won't sit still and I need to keep his eyes covered. So, that's not something I can do regularly.

And it's just too cold to take him outside on a weekend. When the temperature drops to less than 14C he starts to snuffle already so I don't want him getting chilly outside.

Talishan
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Post   » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:45 am


"I'll probably start him on them this weekend or next. As there's no real sign that they'll work, and I don't want him on them unless they are helping I'm going to spend the next week of two really monitoring him.

I'll check his sludge output, see how much he's drinking and listen to him for squeaking. I want to know exactly what is "normal" for him."

I think this is an extremely good plan. Please keep us posted on how it works out.

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