Noddy's sick. Aerococcus. Please help

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BamBam

Post   » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:04 pm


Yes, the last vet I saw to discuss blood samples used to over cut a toe nail but apparently the new analysis equipment (you'd know more about that Hilary) requires more than can be provided by the technique.

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:15 pm


I'm sorry to report Noddy seems to have taken another dip, his weight is falling, even though I'm syringe feeding with Critical Care and tempting him with is favourite treats. There seems little point taking him to the vet, given what was said last time, and I fear the vet will just say the time has come, which I don't believe it has.
Noddy is eating the newspaper which lines his cage, is there a reason for this, and is it harmful?

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DMac
Supporter in '10, '11, & '12

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:27 pm


I had a pig eat cage liner once while he was having a soft poop episode. I thought at the time that it was probably because he was unable to eat his caecal pellets because of the soft poop situation, so he was eating it off the the cage liner where it ended up. Can you give your pig poop soup?

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:24 pm


DMac, thanks for that. I'll try anything! Sorry to seem dense, but what is poop soup? He's passing solid poops, some of which I'm hand feeding him. I've not seen any other poops. In the past he has had some problems with impaction, which I've had to help him with, but that doesn't seem to be an issue just now.

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BamBam

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:29 pm


Poop soup = poops mixed with water so you can syringe feed it to him. Mind you if he's eating them without the water then I'd give the water a miss.

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gvstate01

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:01 pm


I usually give poop soup from another healthy gp. Do you have another piggie that can surrender a poo? :D

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:55 pm


Thanks, sorry to be so dense! Yes, I'm sure Maggie could spare a few. Shall I give them in addition to giving him his own?

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mkkayla
Supporter in '14

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:09 pm


Don't use his, only hers, need to be from a healthy pig.

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DMac
Supporter in '10, '11, & '12

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:20 pm


Try to get a caecal pellet. That's what he really needs. I've read that some people give regular poops if they can't get a caecal, but I'm not sure how effective it is.

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BamBam

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:47 pm


Come on people - what are we missing here?

Noddy isn't old, is an indoor pig with absolutely everything a pig could need - most importantly a fantastic mum.

Is the bacterial infection a symptom rather than a cause? Would it cause such a dramatic loss of appetite?

Is his immune system compromised, making him susceptible to infection?

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:24 pm


Without reading back, has a urinalysis been done? General body X-ray?

I'd want a blood draw but NOT via vena cava. Is there anyone you can get to who will attempt a blood draw from a leg/hip vein?

Has Flagyl (metronidazole) been considered and/or given? It is not a true antibiotic but an antimicrobial and is generally well tolerated. It can get rid of certain bacteria but also protozoans, amoebae (sp?) and the like.

Eating the newspaper is fine, if it is printed with soy-based ink (most common everyday newspapers are nowdays). We had one with chronic GI problems who ate cardboard and paper regularly. It actually helps, pushing insoluble fiber through the system.

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gvstate01

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:02 am


Agreed on the vena cava. I personally would only attempt that in a life/death situation. I had a blood draw for a glucose test via front leg. My vet has needles small enough for this; however, once she was pricked with the needle, she bled enough for a sample!

Agree with everything Talishan said :) And I'd like to throw in a recent experience with a kidney infection. I'm not sure if this causes weight loss (I caught it early), but any test that can be done if blood is taken is a good idea :)

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:35 am


Thanks folks. Talishan, an X-ray hasn't been done, there's no-one I know of locally who can do it without anaesthetic, and he's really not fit for that.
Urinalysis showed nothing abnormal, swab of the penis discharge grew aerococcus viridans, treated with Baytril. He got bloat after 5 days, so that was stopped. He's had Septrin for a ?UTI (1 episode of haematuria), but nothing else systemic.
I'm cleaning his penis with dilute Chlorhexidine solution.
Again, I'm not going to subject him to vena cava stab, and I fear if I go back to the vet and ask for a blood test from a toenail they wouldn't do it, as they seemed to feel he was heading for the bridge. I'm not about to give up on him without a fight!
Thinking about it, I've not actually seen any caecal pellets from him for a while, and previously he's needed help to clear them. Is that what's causing the problem? MaggieMae gets to hers so quickly that she wouldn't part with any. I can only get a few of her "normal" poops.
BamBam has recommended a rodentologist who is not too far away, and she can at least look at his teeth without sedation, so I'm waiting for a call from her to go and see what she can offer.

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gvstate01

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:55 pm


*I am just taking a stab at this!* I have no experience with this but have been thinking about it! I've done a little bit of research on aerococcus viridans and it seems as though it's not only an airborne bacteria but is normally confused with Streptococcus and Staphylococcus as they have a lot of the same characteristics. Baytril doesn't kill either of these, but Septrin (Bactrim) does. How long was he on Bactrim? 10-14 days is normal to clear up. But if it's something worse, it can be given up to 6 weeks! Which I'm in the process of now :-/

Since an xray hasn't been taken and he had a little bit of blood in the urine at one point (does he still?), I wouldn't rule out stones. I've had 3 pigs with stones and they usually don't want to eat and lose weight cause it hurts to poop/pee. Or he could be trying to pass a stone that is lodged in his urethra. If it has scratched his urethra, there could be an infection there (Streptococcus or Staphylococcus) that could have been confused with A. viridans.

This is only my train of thought. Really trying to wrack my brain on this one!

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:14 pm


gvstate01, that's really helpful. He was on the Septrin for a week, so I guess that may not have been long enough. BamBam wondered if it was a contaminant. I saw the swab taken and put straight in the culture medium, so feel probably not, but you can never say never. He no longer has haematuria (on dip testing), though he could have stones I suppose, as he has a history of sludgy urine . Vedra at CCT couldn't feel anything when she palpated his bladder, but I suppose you won't always feel them, especially if they are small.
I've spoken to the rodentologist this evening and she is going to see Noddy tomorrow. She's going to keep him in over the weekend, along with Maggie, to get a feel for how he is behaving.
His weight is still dropping at 10 - 15g a day, despite me hand feeding him, so all help is appreciated, and your information is really helpful, so thanks again for that.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:01 pm


I am not a fan of palpating the bladder to look for stones. They are easily missed and a pig having problems can be injured through rough treatment or a rough stone. An xray is a much better way of locating them.

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DMac
Supporter in '10, '11, & '12

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:37 pm


Agree with Lynx. I winced when I read about palpating.

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gvstate01

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:32 pm


You're welcome, I was just throwing anything out there hoping something would help :) And agree with Lynx. I would be careful with palpating with stones. You never know if there's something going on inside of them you don't know about. My Truffles had wafer thin intestines and ruptured very easily. The xray is your best friend :)

I'll post a pic here of my Ginger's stone that was completely blocking her urethra (if it wasn't for the slight curve in it). It's extremely small and I can't imagine it could be felt but it was so big it was creating a 99% blockage! (sorry for the slight blurriness)

Image

Edit: My vet had a very sick piggie in last year and called me and asked if one of my pigs could give a caecal sample. She described it as the pig needing a "fecal transplant" which is poop soup basically. That pig hasn't been back at the vet for serious problems so far. It seems as though Noddy's problem may be more urgent, but getting their gut flora back to normal is very important as well :)

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:43 pm


Ditto to gvstate and the other responses you have received. Please let us know what the rodentologist says.

We have a female now whose previous owner took her to the vet, I believe essentially for a well check. The vet palpated what he thought was some kind of harmless mass in her vaginal/perianal area -- sorta like an impaction. No hematuria; behavior, appetite, drinking, urination, defecation all fine.

I took her for a baseline x-ray when we got her. She had a bladder stone about as big as the above picture in her urethra. Not blocked or close to it -- but still! Vet worked it out with a tweezers under light sedation. She's fine.

Very best wishes to Noddy and to you.

gv: I've had some odd requests from my vets, but a cecotrope has never been one of them! Glad to hear your pig's donation did the cure.

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gvstate01

Post   » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:54 pm


My vet was able to get in there too without surgery :) It was stuck so she used some lube and a catheter! I think Ginger still wishes she could have that raspberry flavored Vibramycin haha. And my response to the fecal transplant.."ummm..." lol.

Hope Noddy's goin strong and well wishes to you both :D And ditto on what the rodentologist says, crossing fingers for some good news :)

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