Inguinal Hernia -- prognosis/complications

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Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:42 pm


And you [or the foster] are flushing with sterile saline?

Well, then, Biosponge is my cure for the diarrhea.

Charybdis

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:59 pm


She is flushing (as per Dr. R) with a peroxide/water mixture. I will send her the Biosponge right away, think I might have to order it online.

And no Reglan, right? I think the vet was thinking it might get rid of the gas. She was already giving charcoal.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:15 pm


AAAAAAKKKK. You know how peroxide sets me off!!!!
EEEEEEK!

Yeah, not a fan of charcoal. Um, if she is giving charcoal, that would actually be a HUGE rule-out as to the CAUSE of the diarrhea. Why the heck is she giving charcoal? I only EVER, EVER use it in specific toxin injestions. I have NEVER, EVER wanted to give it to a cavy. It is notorious for causing "charcoal-diarrhea."

And the charcoal could easily cause gas, too. Personally, I wouldn't give the Reglan unless you needed to treat nausea or GI stasis.

Charybdis

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:21 pm


She is giving the charcoal for the gas and just started giving it.

Normally I'm right with you on everything but I do give activated charcoal for gas because it absorbs toxins and I have found it to be effective for bloat in guinea pigs when simethicone was not. It is a gas treatment (sold over the counter as Charcocaps), so it seems odd to me that it could cause gas, is this related to over-dosing? I have only ever given a small amount, have used it for the past ten years and never had diarrhea result in guinea pigs.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:23 pm


So weird.

Well, the kaolin/charcoal we give 100% of the time causes soft stool at the least. Runny and dark is normal.

Not sure what toxins the charcoal is supposed to absorb? Do you have some literature on that? It's a gas treatment for humans? But like some anti-heartburn remedies (Ca Carbonate comes to mind), they often can contribute to that which they are supposed to "cure." Do you have a vet that is recommending charcoal for gas? I've never heard that recommended in a veterinary setting.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:32 pm


Doing some googling, several sites list activated charcoal as a "laxative."

Also, finding out that it is indicated for gas (flatulence) in the colon. Not sure cavies suffer from that. Doesn't the reason we give Reglan is that it works on gastric emptying and upper GI motility?

Mechanisms of action:
"Binding of the toxin to prevent stomach and intestinal absorption. Binding is reversible so a cathartic such as sorbitol may be added as well.
It interrupts the enterohepatic and enteroenteric circulation of some drugs/toxins and their metabolites."

"reversible?" Interesting.

Also, noted it is very toxic (fatal) if aspirated. Crap. That's great.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:43 pm


I also found a few sites that warn of bowel obstruction caused by charcoal if patient is not adequately hydrated. So odd.

Apparently, it cures every illness known to man on one site or another, also. :) Sounds great to me! Not.

Charybdis

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:01 pm


Yes a lot of homeopathic treatments get people claiming they cure everything.

Both of my exotics vets support the use of small amounts of charcoal, dissolved in water, to treat a gassy pig. And I always advise to syringe some water afterwards. And not give it within several hours of administering other medications, so that it doesn't interfere with them.

I've never researched it and I'm not sure if I first read about using it on here (probably) or from Dr. R. I have been recommending it on here for years, but maybe you missed those threads for some reason? I definitely have not been told by anyone before that it could be harmful, you know how careful I am with that.

Activated charcoal is sold as a gas remedy in the drugstores. It is kept next to the Beano and the main brand I see is Charcocaps. I tried it myself once after a bad taco shop experience and it works amazingly well and quickly. I wish I could give you more information on how exactly it works. If a pig has gas, that is what I give them. But maybe the tiny amount I give isn't enough to cause a reaction?

The reason I recommend it over the Simethicone is because it is supposed to work on lower G.I. gas. The ER vet at PESC told me (after we had to euthanize Scratchy for Torsion) that simethicone works well on the upper G.I. but usually guinea pigs get severe gas in their lower G.I.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:13 pm


No, the risks are what I mentioned above. Aspiration causes death and potential bowel obstruction in not well-hydrated patients. But, I think those are negligible. You can eat dirt daily and get the same response.

Really odd that I haven't come across this ever... not in the veterinary side (and I've worked in a ton of different settings) nor on the folk remedy side nor homeopathy. But maybe as I personally have never really had ANY use for such a thing is why I have never seen it?

Certainly, the references state it is hard to overdose and may or may not help. Much like probiotics. Especially OTC ones. So, I will not argue there. But, I certainly doubt I'll try it anytime soon. And the fact that the pig is having diarrhea and laxative is one of many, many qualities of the miracle activated charcoal, I might run that by my vet. If I were in your situation. But since he recommended Reglan, maybe that isn't the best idea, either. Decisions, decisions.

Oh, and I don't personally think simethicone helps all that much, either. I've always been a Reglan devotee. Personally and in the dogs, cats, cavies, etc.

Charybdis

Post   » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:42 pm


Unfortunately the vet is insisting that Simon get simethicone as well. I really do agree the Biosponge is a good idea. And will mention to the vet to be careful in recommending charcoal doses in cases of a potential laxative effect.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:53 am


Peroxide is great for hair dye. That's it.

Now, just to muddy the waters I have no problem with using metoclopramide in the case of soft stool. It can move material through faster, and any bad or abnormal material moves out faster right along with it. Think of driving past a plastic bag at 5 mph, and again at about 70. This in the case of a finite amount of abnormal crud that has to come out, however ... not necessarily with more being made behind it, if that makes any sense at all.

I wouldn't use it in the case of full-on diarrhea and given what your foster has described I too would be concerned about an ascending infection. :-( Without reading back Jo mentioned metronidazole? That's the first thing I'd ask for.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:04 am


Yeah, the pig has been on metronidazole for more than a week. I hate seeing that and diarrhea.

Dunno, Talishan, doesn't peroxide cause hair loss? At least the girl at work who tried it most recently must have left it on too long or whatever. Her hair looked really brittle and was breaking/falling out. Yuck. I had no idea people still did that nowadays!

Since the charcoal is such a mystery to me, I did double-check both Plumb's and Carpenter's Pharmacology. No mention whatsoever in Carpenter's. For ANY indication. In Plumb's there are only doses for Dogs/Cats, Ruminants, and Horses for toxicity only. And it does mention constipation AND diarrhea as most commonly seen side effects.

Ascending infection? Yeah, we may never know. For all we know, the peroxide is causing issues and electrolyte imbalances. Hard to say.

Charybdis

Post   » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:28 am


It's been years since I've seen Dr. R but I vaguely recall that he used to have me flush abscesses with either diluted Betadine or sterile saline, and sometimes with a peroxide solution if there was a reason to want to get rid of dead skin? Down here the vets all flush with sterile saline only. I asked the foster if she has sterile saline to flush with instead.

So far the stool is more solid but the bloating remains. I advised the foster not to use the Reglan if the stool gets softer.

I would imagine that most veterinary formularies don't list or encourage homeopathic remedies? Or maybe they do, I have never read one. However the idea that charcoal relieves gas in humans is not new; and there are dozens of commercial charcoal treats for dogs that are supposed to help control gas (which is not so great because it probably causes the owners not to seek the cause of the gas).

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:36 am


Yes, a few of the old vets will do that. Just not sure if I would be comfortable, even for that reason, for an abscess that communicates with the abdominal cavity.

Actually, Chary, you might be surprised at how many "homeopathic" or neutraceuticals are making it into the formularies. A few are even being capitalized by the veterinary companies who make supplements. So, I have no doubt if it was horribly viable and effective that more vets would recommend it.

I also have seen charcoal flavored biscuits, but for the most part, aren't they in the lesser quality brands? OMH is the only one I would even dare to feed my dogs, but even then, I haven't fed those treats in years and years. Too many higher quality ones out there. Very interesting, indeed and have no doubt I will be asking the vets I work with if they had ever seen a practical veterinary application.

Also, I have gone to quite a bit of CE along the holistic side and have never seen charcoal mentioned or in the notes for that. There are a ton of different modalities along the Eastern Med side, so maybe it is recommended in some more than others?

Charybdis

Post   » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:24 pm


He has diarrhea again and he is crying when he poops and straining. I told the foster: no more Reglan. No veggies. Increase probiotocs and supplement vitamin C. Stop Peroxide. She is going back to Dr. R in the morning. I'm worried about a partial blockage, maybe from adhesions or inflammation in the G.I. tract from ascending infection.

We ordered the Biosponge, couldn't find it local.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:02 am


" ... maybe from adhesions ... "

This is very likely IME. Now what you do about it I'm not sure. In the human they go in there and basically bust them up. In a small animal I don't know what's done, or if anything can be.

Please keep us posted.

Charybdis

Post   » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:03 pm


The vet gave her Lactulose. *headdesk*

His poops are better today and he is not crying.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:19 pm


For stool softening??? Bizarre.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:14 pm


*headdesk two*

Not crying is good, though. Hang in. How is he doing now?

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:29 pm


Oh Char, I have a bunch of questran if you need it. I remember lactolouse for stool softening too- I think a GP.

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