It's ok, Chary, I haven't been attacked in several months so Im due.
Also, old people (Lynx) hate change, so I expected her to feel personally offended. She is, after all, the ivermectin queen!
Lynx, I have personal experience with oral ivermectin being ineffective in one of my daughter's pigs, Bosco. That is the ONLY reason I even posted. As I wrote earlier, (although it is quite apparent that people are not really reading) I had this info from the vet months ago. I did not post until I could try it on Bosco.
>>Well, the truth is it works orally <<.
Not on some pigs, Lynx, and unless you want to openly call me a liar, please read what I have been trying to say.
Bosco is my daughter's himi. She is married and on her own and doesn't live here.
Bosco had the typical mite V in the middle of his back. Also extremely sensitive to any touching, and almost went into seizures if you rubbed the fur on his back the wrong way. Mites, right? OK.
She dosed him orally, 5 weeks in a row. No change. OK, so I figured maybe it wasn't mites, and we treated him for lice and fungus, even though I could not see anything. I'm figuring, if the ivermectin didn't work, it must be something else.
After another 3 weeks, there was still no hair growth, he was just as sensitive, and he was starting to drop weight.
Thinking that perhaps my daughter did the ivermectin wrong, or missed a dose, or some other form of human error, I started Bosco back on ivermectin. I mixed the oral dosages. I dosed him myself every 7 days. For 5 treatments.
OK, now we are REALLY stumped, because he is the same. No improvement.
When Pebbles went to the vet, before her spay, Bosco was at my house because my kids were on vacation. All her pigs were here.
I told the vet I wanted an appt for Bosco, and explained the above to her. It was THEN that she told me that she had just read a new article that said that SOME pigs might be resistant to ORAL ivermectin, and that injections were recommended and proving very reliable in irradicating mites in these resistant pigs. I immediately asked about topical dosing, and she said she had no data on that, the article was about oral and injections ONLY. She named the vet and the article, but I was outside in the yard and did not write it down. And no, she still hasn't called.
OK, so I start Bosco on a TOPICAL series of ivermectin. I went and purchased the injectable kind to use topically. (As a side note, there was a female sow at 3lilpiggies that was having the same thing. Hairloss in one spot on her back, and oral ivermectin did not solve it. I told this topical story to her, and she treated the pig and her hair is all growing back.)
I dosed Bosco every 7 days for 5 treatments. He is MUCH less sensitive. He doesn't mind if you rub his fur the wrong way anymore. His hair is growing back, I think. He STILL has the telltale V on his back, so I am not completely sure the topical doses worked! It could be that he has developed a "habit" of biting off his hair. It could be that he actually damaged the hair follicles or something (no idea). Or it COULD be that he is highly resistant to ivermectin, and may need injections. I honestly don't know. I suppose time will tell, and if he again becomes sensitive, or loses more hair, I'll keep you all posted.
Those personal experiences with Bosco and Priscilla were what made me finally post that, PERHAPS, ORAL ivermectin may not be effective for SOME pigs.
I think it is ludicrous and asinine to say that I don't believe ivermectin is effective. I have never said, nor do I believe that. That is the only safe thing I know of to get rid of mites.
I'm sorry if some of you thought I posted irresponsibly. I felt, having gone through what I did with Bosco and Priscilla, I would tell you what my vet had told me.
>>before you shoot the vet that said ivermectin injections are the only way to be sure you've gotten the mites, for some pigs, he might be right, according to this new info from my vet <<
Chary, I said this because, frankly, Bosco still does not have hair in the V!! Period. And I don't know why. I HATE shots, I HATE the expense, but just to find out for sure, I may well go ahead and do ivermectin injections on him. I feel sorry for the pig if he has mites! It hurts. It's not right to let him suffer if he is the 1 in 1000 that topical and oral ivermectin will not help.
I'm not sure what else to do. I'm also not sure what to do with info I get, if it's new, because obviously I screwed this one up. I tried really hard not to scream and shout, I used words like "possibly, "maybe", "perhaps". Sheesh.
Give me options, people. How should I have reported this? AND WHERE IS THAT DAMN VET!!!!!!???
severe mites--need Dex dose quick
I'm sorry the link doesn't work for you, Lynx. Did you try the html link, too? I was having trouble myself with the pdf link so that is why I also included the html link.
I found many points of interest. I really don't want to quote any of them here, though, for fear of misinterpretation. It's better to read the whole text.
I found many points of interest. I really don't want to quote any of them here, though, for fear of misinterpretation. It's better to read the whole text.
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
I'll tell you what bothers me about your post and your claim. Esp now that I've read the article (or much of it, though I need to try again). Your words are these:
Another interesting piece of information from that article is that the ivermectin does get into the mother's milk. It is a much lower dose than if you were dosing the animal, but it is there. So indeed, the babies DO get some of the ivermectin if their mother is treated with it while nursing. If it is felt pups should not be treated until they are older, it would then be better to wait until the mother is not nursing before treating with ivermectin.
It's that damn "resistant" word. Very inappropriate and misleading. If you read the article, it says (Paisley, correct me if I'm wrong and add your own interpretation of the article) that the amount of ivermectin in the blood determines its effectiveness and that guinea pigs have a very low amount of ivermectin in the blood when it is administered orally vs. administered by injection. They also say it is low topically but it persists (another variable, how long it is in the bloodstream) much longer. What might this mean? That the oral dose might be more effective at 0.5mg/kg. My problem is with your use of "resistant". There is no proof it is resistant at all. What the article implies is that the effective dose is lower and perhaps may not be as effective when given orally. Though as we all know, many of us have had success with an oral dose of 0.2mg/kg.SOME pigs might be resistant to ORAL ivermectin, and that injections were recommended and proving very reliable in irradicating mites in these resistant pigs.
...it COULD be that he is highly resistant to ivermectin...
Another interesting piece of information from that article is that the ivermectin does get into the mother's milk. It is a much lower dose than if you were dosing the animal, but it is there. So indeed, the babies DO get some of the ivermectin if their mother is treated with it while nursing. If it is felt pups should not be treated until they are older, it would then be better to wait until the mother is not nursing before treating with ivermectin.
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kleenmama
- I GAVE, dammit!
Lynx, my VET used the word resistant. I did not make it up. That is the very word she used. She still didn't call back, so I'll try again tomorrow.
I did read and tried to understand what Paisley posted, and the links. Although I did understand that, most of that info is older than the last couple of months.
The way my vet made it sound when she talked to me just a couple months back was " I just read some new literature that shows some pigs might be resistant to oral ivermectin".
If, when she finally calls back, she gives me the article, I'll post it here. I'f I've misunderstood her words or intent, I will also post that so that we can clear this up.
I did read and tried to understand what Paisley posted, and the links. Although I did understand that, most of that info is older than the last couple of months.
The way my vet made it sound when she talked to me just a couple months back was " I just read some new literature that shows some pigs might be resistant to oral ivermectin".
If, when she finally calls back, she gives me the article, I'll post it here. I'f I've misunderstood her words or intent, I will also post that so that we can clear this up.
Ok, I read Paisley's article with difficulty. Science was never my strong point.
In the passage which talks about Ivermectin formulations, a distinction is made between injectable doses using, I presume, the 1% solution (in glycerol, benzyl alcohol, propylene glycol) and a less effective water formulation. It seems that the study showed that water-based formulations are less effective than the "straight" Ivermectin.
It appears, although I am not sure, that this study used a water-based formulation to dose these animals orally. Although I can't find any direct evidence in the article, it does not seem to me that the study used the INJECTABLE form of Ivermectin ORALLY, as we do. Horse paste is mentioned, and that may have been what was used orally (or something similar).
What I'm wondering if that variable (type of formulation of Ivermectin) was factored into the results pertaining to administration route.
Can someone who is more science-oriented than I try to figure that out? Did they use different formulations for different routes?
In the passage which talks about Ivermectin formulations, a distinction is made between injectable doses using, I presume, the 1% solution (in glycerol, benzyl alcohol, propylene glycol) and a less effective water formulation. It seems that the study showed that water-based formulations are less effective than the "straight" Ivermectin.
It appears, although I am not sure, that this study used a water-based formulation to dose these animals orally. Although I can't find any direct evidence in the article, it does not seem to me that the study used the INJECTABLE form of Ivermectin ORALLY, as we do. Horse paste is mentioned, and that may have been what was used orally (or something similar).
What I'm wondering if that variable (type of formulation of Ivermectin) was factored into the results pertaining to administration route.
Can someone who is more science-oriented than I try to figure that out? Did they use different formulations for different routes?
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