severe mites--need Dex dose quick

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LindsayMarie

Post   » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:06 am


Thats what my vet had said as well. That the ivermectin injection was the only known EFFECTIVE treatment for mites when I asked for other options. I knew this could not be true seeing as each shot is 25-27 dollars and 3-4 are needed per treatment per pig and rescues could not afford that and the cost of housing, feeding etc. So I came back to this site and sure enough lynx and everyone informed me and helped me with other options.

Unfortunately when it comes to exotics many vets just arent educated enough to properly diagnose and treat them. I have seen this many times with my bearded dragons. Many clinics turned me away, including emergency clinics! Then when I found a couple that took exotics even they were still learning and often I was telling them the problem and asking for the right medications and helping with the dosing! Its crazy and even the vets will admit that we probably know more then they do sometimes when it comes to the exotics we put so much care and research into.

Its sad, but true. Hopefully in the future it will get better, until then we have places like this!

Lindsay

User avatar
LindsayMarie

Post   » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:08 am


What happened to my post? Why did it say page 7 of 6? Hmmm my post is lost!!!!!!!!haha

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:10 pm


I know there's another page so I'm just posting to get there since I can't.

User avatar
PauloF

Post   » Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:50 pm


This messing up of pages are the result of low chocolate levels in Lynx's bloodflow.

This happens when she doesn't get her daily chocolate shots on time. Keep some almond chocolate bars handy for emergencies.

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:20 pm


PauloF is right. So very right. I would never consider saying I have no idea why this is happening when it is obviously due to a shortage of chocolate.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:13 pm


One sec, though, before everyone goes off the deep end.

First, my vet just got done telling me about 2 months ago that SOME pigs were resistant to ivermectin in an oral dose. It was written up somewhere, she is getting the info for me. She told me the vets name but I didn't write it down. It's a woman, I think.

SO, since I had 2 pigs here that were still showing obvious signs of mites even though they had been treated 3-4 doses each, and 2 rounds of it, we decided to try the injectible ivermectin topically. If that didn't work, we were going to try injections (blech!)

Well, the topical dosing worked very well for these pigs, and both are growing their hair back. One had a round circle of missing hair in the middle of her back, and Bosco had a very huge V. His is getting better, but after 5 weekly doses of topical ivermectin, he is not nearly 100%. If it doesn't continue to improve, we will go for injections.

So, before you shoot the vet that said ivermectin injections are the only way to be sure you've gotten the mites, for some pigs, he might be right, according to this new info from my vet.

Oh, and just for some background, both of these pigs have also been agressively treated for fungus, lice and dry skin, etc.

User avatar
LindsayMarie

Post   » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:20 pm


Thanks Kleenmama! That will help me if mytwo dont stop itching soon. They just recently went through their second treatment of ivermectin orally and are still itching quite a bit. They dont have any sores, or new missing fur, but their itching more then normal in my opinion. I will give it 4 treatments. If nothing then I will try and get ahold of the ivermectin injection for topical treatment. Then of course its back to the vet if they arent too ticked at me for trying to do it on my own! I guess I will find out when I bring Lexi in end of this month for her spay and hip xrays! I am sure they will ask why xander hasnt been brought back in for his ivermectin injection shot. Hopefully it doesnt come to that as the shot OBVIOUSLY hurts them, ouch! It takes them forever to get it into their skin, their skin is so tough! Lindsay

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:45 am


Oh, Jesus.

KM, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge. But I strongly object to posting on a public forum that one vet heard from another vet that oral Ivermectin is not effective in some pigs. I would really appreciate if people would back up assertions like that (this also happened with the kaopectate incident), before you go sending thousands of hapless cavy owners back to the vet for Ivermectin injections.

It is probably true that a small percantage--and I mean SMALL--of guinea pigs may react better to topical than oral Ivermectin. However, I have neither seen nor heard of any guinea pigs who respond to NEITHER, in which case the idea of injections at the vet is still a moot point. It is EXPENSIVE, PAINFUL, and UNNECCESSARY. IMO, it is just a way for greedy vets to make a buck, and you know that's exactly what this vet was doing.

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:46 am


This vet had absolutely NO reason to believe that oral ivermectin would not work on these guinea pigs, and what's more, he has proven himself to be a moron. Furthermore, he gave a potentially lethal overdose of a poison to these pigs.

So I'm still going to maintain: INJECTIONS OF IVERMECTIN are not necessary. It's a rip-off, as far as I'm concerned. And most vets don't know how to treat it properly anyway.

However, I completely agree with trying topical after oral Ivermectin doesn't work. Or, as is the case in rescues, trying topical first, since it treats lice as well.

Let's please be careful with slinging around medical hearsay until we have documentation to back it up. I just live in fear that some of the wonderful work people have done on this site helping people care for their cavies will be undone by people posting, "well, my vet said." Vets don't always know best. As a matter of fact (and don't we all know this by now?), they usually DON'T when it comes to guinea pigs.

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:11 am


So, before you shoot the vet that said ivermectin injections are the only way to be sure you've gotten the mites, for some pigs, he might be right, according to this new info from my vet.

BTW, your story doesn't correspond with that idea if topical was effective for your pigs.

In addition, I HIGHLY suspect that any such study did not factor in topical dosing into the research. Most vets don't even seem to know that you can dose topically.

We need to think about the position that we're in here. People consider this site authoritative (as do I), and I'd like to believe that it is based on sound evidence.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:29 am


I know. I worried about that when I posted, Chary, believe me.

>>In addition, I HIGHLY suspect that any such study did not factor in topical dosing into the research. Most vets don't even seem to know that you can dose topically.<<

You don't need to suspect, I'll come right out and tell you. I immediately asked my vet about topical, and she said the article DID NOT mention topical at all, and SHE was not sure if topical would work.

I tried really hard to qualify my vet's position. Let me do it again like this.

If you have treated your pigs ORALLY for mites, the correct dosage, 7-10 days apart for at least 4 doses, and the pig showed NO IMPROVEMENT, then your pig MAY be one of the VERY RARE ones that does not respond to ORAL ivermectin.

Bosco is showing "some" improvement. In my own opinion, I am waiting for a couple weeks to determine hair re-growth. He is absolutely less sensitive.

Here is what I'll do. I'll get the article from my vet. I think it's important as new info comes out that we be open minded and present these things.

I don't believe it was just hearsay, though, since this was a written article, not just one vet to another.

I'll find the source. We all need to know. I agree with you dosing topically. I was very interested in what my vet told me, because I always treat orally! That's because I use Advantage for lice, topically, and I don't want both meds on my pigs' skin.

So I'll take your chastising, but I would not have posted this had I not had the info from my vet. I'm not one that tends to go around blathering hearsay.

Perhaps I delivered it wrong, or came across wrong.

Paisley

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:25 pm


kleenmama,

There is no need to apologize. We need to be made aware of changes in treatment methods, changes in ingredients, etc., as it may very well affect our guinea pigs' lives.

Here is a link of interest regarding Ivermectin Pharmacokinetics:
www.vf.uni-lj.si/veterina/zbornik/167_crkvenik_e.pdf

I can't seem to get the pdf version to load properly on my computer so I'm also including a link to the html version.

The html version:
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:myEZWeLyElUJ:www.vf.uni ... =en&ie=UTF-8

Perhaps this is what your vet was talking about.

Evangeline

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:32 pm


I think it's wise to hold back information of this kind until there is scientific data avalable to back it up. Remember idiots are also reading this board and what they'll remember is "oral Ivermectin is not effective". I guess I am not comfortable with KM's post, either, because I know morons will just run with it.

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:15 pm


I doubt the studies had anything at all to do with guinea pigs. Extrapolating another species may be a big mistake. All my data shows oral and topical dosing being safe and effective. It may take a few extra treatments in the worst case but eventually if they are mange mites, they go down. And there is absolutely no question ivermectin is one of the most effective drug treatments, if not THE most effective drug treatment.

I will continue to recommend it and use it myself.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:25 pm


Actually, Lynx, if I understood my vet correctly, it was ONLY about guinea pigs. But I have a call in to her and will know soon enough.

I don't believe ANYWHERE I said that ivermectin was ineffective. I said some pigs are shown to be resistant to ORAL ivermectin.

Man, I always knew how badly things get twisted around on a forum.

Comfortable or not with this info, if it is legitimate, we should just keep our mouths shut?

I'm not understanding this AT ALL.

*Still waiting for the callback from my vet*. You'd think she was busy or something. Sheesh.

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:56 pm


Well, the truth is it works orally. I haven't had personal experience with it not working. If there is a problem, you can always do more treatments. Your advice can easily be twisted into an admonishment not to use oral ivermectin. It is used orally all the time on many species of animal.

This is like people putting out scares for feeding different foods. If you use moderation and general guidelines (so long as there is not a specific medical problem with your pig that would require a different diet), many foods are just fine.

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:08 pm


KM, I'm sorry if you feel like you are being attacked.

I think the problem lies in the fact that your vet says that perhaps ORAL dosing is not effective in some cases, and therefore your conclusion was that

before you shoot the vet that said ivermectin injections are the only way to be sure you've gotten the mites, for some pigs, he might be right, according to this new info from my vet

This conclusion doesn't even take into account topical dosing, so I don't think you would have gotten such a hot response if you had not said that injections could perhaps be the "only way."

I'm really interested in seeing the evidence when you get it. I'd like to know what the dosage rates were in that study and how many doses were given, etc.

Paisley

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:17 pm


Actually, the link I provided did have a reference to guinea pigs and blood plasma levels after a subq injection of ivermectin. Please see page 4 of the link.

Paisley

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:20 pm


If someone can get their hands on this journal article, it may have some interesting information:

McKellar QA, Midgley DM, Galbraith EA, Scott EW, Bradley A. Clinical and pharmacological properties of ivermectin in rabbits and guinea pigs. Vet Rec 1992; 130: 71-3.

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:27 pm


Going to the link locks up IE for me. I think I read something about injections getting into the blood most quickly but topical administration working for the longest time.

One should keep in mind ivermectin is also used for intestinal parasites. It may also be that different routes are better to treat different bugs. But persistence will still win out (i.e. repeat treatments).

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