Jan's Toothy Smile medical thread

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:11 pm


Is there something wrong with your water supply or does it taste strange
I am NOT saying that! I am saying I syringe fed them due to various illnesses. There is nothing wrong with our water. NOT all the girls drink water. They get their water from their food. Like when I wash their food there is water on it. They get lettuce which is 99% water. They get cucumber which has water in it.
I don't drink water as it gives me acid, yet my husband drinks it like it is going out of fashion. Every person is different and I think that goes for guinea pigs too. Out of all out piggies I think 4 never drank water as they got enough from their food! And they lived to old age 4-7 years of age. We use rainwater. Out of our current girls of 6 only 2 drink water but there is always a bottle if they need it.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:08 am


The vet has said there is nothing more she can do for Joy as it seems the same can be said here as I got no replies. So I have bitten the bullet, I have upped her Benazepril from 0.1 to 0.7 (other vet had her on 0.8) and I am asking any one can I go up to 0.5mls 3 times a day on Flusapex? Her weight is nearly 1000grams again.

Am using hot pack for feet and ears and syringe feeding every 4 hours. I really hope some one replies as I will NOT give up!

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:20 am


Your goal will be to monitor her behavior and decide if it was a good move, given what you know about her health.

As you know, we recommend all these decisions are made under the care of a vet. I believe any of us here cannot in good faith recommend changes in medications that you do on your own. We can only give our experience with medication.

This is an online forum. We can't see or evaluate your guinea pig personally, nor are we vets. I understand any reluctance to make specific recommendations for this guinea pig from members here.

pinta

Post   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:15 pm


I don't do math - you should all be thankful. Lasix dose in book is 2-5mg/kg every 12 hours. We have regularly given a maintenance dose of 5mg/kg daily with no ill effects. I've already posted the max doses we have given.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:29 pm


I understand that I will be getting no more help for Joy on this forum and whilst I am very disappointed I understand why! Joy got so much better this morning and has falling flat again. If she makes it through today I think it will be a miracle. I hope you see I had to try anything I could to help Joy, if there was any chance she could have gotten better or improved I had to take it!

Pinta I did not understand mg/ml but going by what Sef wrote I thought 0.5mls was a good bet. And as her last vet had or on 0.7mls of Benzapril I thought 0.7 also to be a safe one.

I will keep you posted and thanking all those who have tried to help us and Joy in this thread!

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:53 pm


Can you answer one question I have on guinea pigs in general? Can they eat hay with clover in it? We have had a bad winter with droughts and now there is the bush fires we have to get what we can. So if someone could answer this for me I would be grateful!

Onto Joy I have weighed her and she has lost 30grams of fluid so far. Thanks again to everyone who took the time to reply and give advice and help!

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ItsaZoo
Supporter in 2020

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:56 am


I'm wishing all the best for you and Joy. I have no experience with a situation like Joy's so I am unable to offer any help.

On the question of feeding hay with clover, however, the RSPCA in Australia has a website that recommends not feeding clover due to the high protein and calcium content. Here is a link to their website: https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-should-i-feed-my-guinea-pigs/.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:24 am


Thanks ItsaZoo for the link, your help and advice. You well wishes mean so much to us! Will keep you posted!

pinta

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:41 am


daisymay - we're trying to help you as much as possible. All prescription meds have the concentration on them. The concentration is how much mgs per ml(cc) is in the meds. Just the ml dose is no use to us without knowing how many mgs of the med is in each ml. My Lasix (Flusapex?) is 10mg/ml. That means the top dose I give is 1ml(1cc) of the Lasix solution. Yours could be 5mg/ml or50mg/ml. Not sure if you've posted the concentration already. My brain shuts off the minute I see numbers and add to that slight dyslexia(already this week I put down 167 when the number was 176 and it looked fine when I proofed it) and I can really screw up. I rely on others to figure out doses from what I write based on my experiences. So much safer that way.

I wrote what we have done for pigs in heart failure and with fluid in the lungs. I can't tell you to do the same I can only tell you what we did and if it worked. It did. I always tell people to run it past their vets before they start changing doses. If your vet says no and you think your vet is wrong it's up to you to do what you think is best for your animal, not us. It would be incredibly irresponsible for anyone on this forum to advise you to ignore your vet. What we can do is tell you what our vets have prescribed and leave it to you to process that information and come up with a plan of action.

I have gone against a vet's dosage but I cleared it with my retired vet via email and informed the other vet on the results. But I am lucky in that I still have contact with my old vet and that we came up with our own treatment plan when there were none in the reference books by my vet thinking outside the box. That's how we came up with much higher doses than were in the books. Took a wild guess based on the cat dose. And we'd been using those doses for probably a decade before doses for pigs appeared in reference books. As our doses were working we didn't change them.

None of us are vets - we just keep vets employed. Everything we suggest has to be considered with that fact in mind.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:14 am


Just the ml dose is no use to us without knowing how many mgs of the med is in each ml. My Lasix (Flusapex?) is 10mg/ml. That means the top dose I give is 1ml(1cc) of the Lasix solution.
Thanks for the reply Pinta! I posted label on bottle says constituents 10mg/ml Frusemide. I am currently giving 0.5mls 3 times a day. On my own back as vet refuses to see her saying nothing more medically can be done.

We have nearly lost Joy 4 times today. But she has lost 30grams. Is 1.5mls a day too much? Last night's weight was 1009grams.

I know none of you are vets I only posted to find out what you had done. 0.4mls once a day was not working so I upped it each feed. The vet wanted to PTS yesterday saying over and over again nothing is known about guinea pigs and heart. I am blue in the face telling her of this site, address and phone numbers of vets on the heart page, google search guinea pig and hearts. She like so many just keep saying not much is known about guinea pigs and their hearts. Here guinea pigs are super pigs and their hearts never get sick! Thanks again Pinta.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:37 am


Joy has slipped into a coma. Only sign of life is her rapid heart beat. So after nearly 6 weeks when we lost Jaffa we are going to lose Joy. Joy is in my arms, i am talking to her with tears running down my face.

When we lose one we usually lose another. Jessie December 2014 Jemma January 2015. Jupiter February 5th 2017 Jasmine February 28th 2017. So now Jaffa December 2nd 2019 and Joy January 2020, She will be reunited with sister Jan November 2018. These girls are our last it is just too painful! Will keep anyone posted.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:34 am


I am so sorry to hear she is struggling with this. I know how hard you work to help your guinea pigs and how deeply you love them.

pinta

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:50 pm


15mg a day is too much. Top dose is 10mg/kg every 24 hours.

But at some point heart pigs' hearts will do them in and nothing will help. Same as with humans with heart disease. You have managed to maintain her life for a very time. That is the absolute most any pig owner can do.

Know that that you have given her the best life possible and in someone elses's hands she would have been gone a long long time ago.

pinta

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:01 pm


And there is a connection between one pig dying and another following soon after. Twice I have lost two pigs within 12-24 hours. These were bonded pairs and while there were health issues with the first pig that died, the second pig, in both cases was healthy. The first time it happened I thought a disease was moving thru our herd. The second time I knew one pig could not live without the other.

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Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:19 pm


I'm truly sorry. It's not just where you live, though; many vets here in the US (mine included) know little to nothing about heart issues in guinea pigs or how to treat it. There is more information "out there" than there was just a few years ago, but it's still very tricky to diagnose and treat properly unless a vet is highly experienced with exotics---and sometimes even then there are no guarantees.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:24 pm


Please do not hate me! I was not lying! Last night Joy was limp, unresponsive and her breathing slow and shallow, then bang she picked up again. I am still in shock!

She is still hanging in there, eating Critical Care and some times her greens. BUT if she is still here tomorrow we may take her to the vet and let her join her sister Jan.

When she was getting the injections of Flusapex(she had 2) 2-3 more and the fluid would have gotten much lower. With 2 injections it went from 1045grams to 872grams, but the vet just said no more injections. Nothing more medically can be done. Made me so mad!!!(Sorry for exclamation points over load).

I will drop the flusapex back to 0.4mls three times a day as directed by the vet(which wasn't working), is it okay to give 0.5mlds of Benezapril once a day? One vet said 0.8mls another said 0.1mls.

Thanks for the replies Sef, Lynx and Pinta, Oh Pinta the pigs we lost closely together were not bonded. Take Jessie she was in her cage and Jemma(passed 4 weeks apart) was in her pen with sister Jasmine. They couldn't see or smell each other. Will keep you posted and again thanks for all the help you all have given! Just wish vets here would take this site and me seriously!

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Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:46 am


Possibly her blood pressure bottomed out from too much Benazepril, but it's hard to say. Again, we would need to know the concentration (mg/ml) of the Benazepril to know if it's being dosed correctly. As with the Flusaplex, it should say something on the bottle like "10mg/ml." The number of milliliters (0.1ml vs. 0.8ml) don't tell us how many actual milligrams were being given.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:10 am


As with the Flusaplex, it should say something on the bottle like "10mg/ml."
That is on the Flusapex. On the Benazepril the first vet had her on just under a ml, this vet 0.1ml-go figure big difference! On the bottle it says 2MG/ML, It was sent away to be compounded, Joy's current weight is 997grams-going up again.

I have dropped the Benazepril to 0.4mls once a day and Flusapex to 0.4mls 3 times a day. I only upped the Flusapex as her weight was going up when on 0.4mls.

Thanks for the reply Sef, hoping this is all the information you need. When ever we pick Joy up we have to be careful as she freaks out, struggles and goes limp(same as Jemma back in 2015), BUT Joy is also blind which doesn't help her. Keep you posted. Going to try to feed Joy as not always swallowing, then off to bed.

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Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:41 pm


On the bottle it says 2MG/ML
Okay, that's what we needed to know. And just so you understand...vets can have it compounded so that it's either a weaker or stronger concentration. So, to say that one vet dosed at 0.1ml and the other dosed it at 0.8ml, doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could have been a different concentration of the same drug from one vet to the other.

Based on James Carpenters 5th edition of Exotic Animal Formulary, which is what I generally use as a guide, Benazepril has a range of effectiveness in rodents:
0.05mg/kg to 0.1 mg/kg. It is recommended to give a dose once every 24 hours.

For rabbits, the dosage is a little higher:
0.25mg/kg to 0.5mg/kg. Again, recommended to be given once every 24 hours.

Using the high-end rodent recommendation, if Joy weighs roughly .9kg, the amount needed of the drug would be .09 milligrams (mg). 0.09 divided by the concentration of Benazepril in that bottle (2mg/ml) would be 0.045 milliliters. That dose is a very small amount -- not even 0.1ml.

Using the high-end amount for rabbits of 0.5mg/kg, the amount needed of the drug would be 0.45 milligrams (mg). Divided by the concentration of Benazapril in the bottle (2mg/ml) equals a dose of 0.23 ml.

As you can see from this, with the concentration of Benazepril that you were given, you would be looking at giving somewhere between 0.05 ml and 0.2 ml. Your vet's recommendation of 0.1 ml would be within that range.


However...Pinta states that her vet uses a higher range:
From my vet: We usually used at least 1 mg/kg twice daily and occas went up to 2 mg/kg, if they weren't responding and if I recall correctly. I have always felt Fortekor to be very safe in GP's tho an overdose could cause low blood pressure and a very lethargic pig.
The dose would be 0.45 ml for Joy, based on that, twice a day. That would be substantially higher than what your vet has suggested. Pinta has a lot of experience with heart pigs (I do not), but as Pinta and Lynx both pointed out, nobody here can in good conscience say to you, "Yes, you should give Joy that much higher amount." Every animal is different. The fact that Joy seemed to crash on the amounts you were giving her (either from the upped Benazepril or upped Flusapex or both) would seem to point to it being too high or too frequent for her. Just my opinion.

As a side note, I did notice in Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook (8th edition) that Flusapex combined with Benazepril can have an increased risk of hypotension (low blood pressure). One of the many symptoms of low blood pressure is loss of consciousness.

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daisymay
Supporter 2016-2021

Post   » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:01 pm


As a side note, I did notice in Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook (8th edition) that Flusapex combined with Benazepril can have an increased risk of hypotension (low blood pressure).
What other medication should I ask the vet for? These were the two the vet gave me. By the way both concentrations of the Benezapril were the same.

Thanks for the reply Sef! Will keep you posted!

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