First it's Elsie..crying when peeing.!

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GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:57 am

Angel eats Escarole..the green stuff with the smooth wide leaves.
The grocery stores here call the yellow leaf stuff endive. Gee, I wonder which one the oxbow nutrional table used then?

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For the love of pigs!

Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:48 pm

Sorry for changing the topic, but how is a total cholesterol of 120 considered high by any standard?

Carol, I hope you figure out what's wrong with Angel's paw soon! There's no specific tenderness that you can discern?

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:05 pm

I have no idea what happened to her! I woke up today to find she can't walk. I feel nothing swollen and no broken skin. I figure she must have a soft tissue injury that will just take time to heal.

Swannie, Joe and Gail's piggie, George passed away today O:(. Gail had him in the car going to the vet to get him into their oxygen tank when he passed in the car. They are devastated but glad he went on his own. It's a sad day today.

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Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:12 pm

Send them our condolences. They did everything they could.

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Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:25 pm

Poor George. I'm so sorry.

And poor Angel. I hope it's nothing serious with her paw.

Escarole and endive--the stuff with the wide leaves--are both members of the chicory family and are the same in terms of their numbers. Those are what you're feeding Angel and what are listed on the Oxbow chart.

Belgium endive is the small, outrageously expensive ones and the whitloof chicory, I believe, is similar to frisee (sp??). They're listed separately.

You feed her three times a day?

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Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:28 pm

Swannie...should have said LDL levels. My doctor says 120 is too high because of a family history of heart disease. He wants it down to 100 or less.

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GL is Just Peachy

Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:32 pm

I'm sorry to hear about George. Are they going to get a necropsy done to see what was going on?

Einstein's foot/ankle injury in January was similar. My dad drove up to NY with the pigs safely in their carriers and Einstein didn't want to put weight on his foot when he came out. The vet school decided that since there were no palpable fractures, no bumblefoot, and no swelling, and that he put some weight on it when walking (this was 2-3 days after the injury) that it was a soft tissue injury. They didn't even prescribe painkillers, although I'm sure meloxicam would have made him feel better.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:20 pm

No necropsy on George. They wouldn't be able to bear that. He's being cremated. Their vet was sure it was cancer that metastized. She found a tumor on his liver with an ultrasound.

Joe already has a box made up for the ashes. Inside the lid is a pic of George and Gail is to bury George with Joe when he goes.

Angel seems to be walking a little better now, although she's still limping. I think it's as Salana describes...a soft tissue injury. Hopefully she'll heal in another day or two.

Yeah...I USED to feed my girls three times a day because I would go home for lunch. They would beg for food and I just couldn't deny them. Three weeks ago I moved so now I don't come home for lunch.

Becky, do you think the Escarole could possibly be the key to Angel's urine crystal problem?

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Post   » Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:59 pm

I've never had experience with oxalate crystals. They seem to be the most effected by diet, but I'd still lay odds on this being genetic in nature.

Before I knew any better, I fed tons of parsely (much higher in oxalates than escarole) to both Chippy and Cookie. Cookie's stones were calcium carbonate and Chippy's sludge is calcium cabonate, too. If diet could cause the crystals, I'd think we'd see more of them.

Really, the escarole is not all that high in oxalates. What you want to avoid is a super concentration of oxalates in one meal. So if you were combining escarole with Romaine and regular green leaf lettuce, it should be OK.

You always could try eliminating it to see if it makes a difference. Chippy still has episodes of blood and mucus, although not nearly as often, and I just treat it with metacam for a day or two.

Since I haven't changed anything in terms of diet or the polycitra, I really can't connect it to what she eats. Seems to have more to do with inflammation than anything else.

Frankly, I don't stress out about it. It's just a part of her life and hasn't had any real adverse effects. She's her same Diva self at over 5 1/2 years old.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:44 pm

Well so far I've witnessed her peeing silently more than I've heard her cry when doing it. However, it's not something I'm always around to hear! I'll let the vet do the cystocentisis saturday to see what the results show. Otherwise she is doing fine...her paw seems to be healing. She's still not putting her full weight on it but she's not limping as bad now.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:40 pm

Angel had her cystocentisis yesterday and all that was found were white blood cells. I am glad that no blood or crystals were found. I cut down on the Escarole and she's been on the Polycitra for two weeks.

The vet is culturing the urine now to see if any bacteria grow. He said it's possible the Bactrim just didn't work.

Now, Elsie cries when peeing and pooping. Just what I need O:(. I've started her on Bactrim and we'll see how it goes.


Post   » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:11 pm

Angel had her cystocentisis yesterday and all that was found were white blood cells. I am
glad that no blood or crystals were found.

Unless I'm mistaken, white blood cells means blood is present. You just can't see it.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:20 pm

I'm not sure but when I asked if there was blood found in her urine he said no.

Maybe in the past there was blood that could be seen in addition to the white blood cells? Could that be?


Post   » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:34 pm

All I know is when my vet spins down a urine sample that looks fine and finds white blood cells it indicates an infection, due to the presence of blood.

If a pig is squeaking when peeing, I'll bring in a urine sample even if it looks okay just to rule out any presence of blood.

Knee Deep

Post   » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:26 pm

Presence of white cells indicates infection, no?

Get on your bike.

Post   » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:54 pm

At least with humans, you can have WBC present with or without microscopic blood.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:34 am

Most of Angel's previous urinalysis's of voided urine showed blood but it would fluctuate from none to trace to a lot. Actually only once in the last year did she have one with no blood. This is the first cystocentisis sample done and it showed no blood per the vet. I understand though what you are saying about the white blood cells. I think when he says no blood he means that is seen in the urine in addition to the wbc.

Anyway, we are hoping it's just an infection which did not respond to the Bactrim.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:09 pm

Okay folks....I need some advice here. I just got a call from the vets office saying Angel's urine culture was negative and they want to repeat the cystocentisis and culture in two weeks to confirm it. They said sometimes the bacteria is lost. I am upset because I hate to put her through this again and it cost $85 to have it done.

On the other hand, if a second test comes out negative then what could be causing the white blood cells in her urine?

I am confused because I am thinking why not just try another antibiotic and do a urinalysis in a few weeks instead?


Post   » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:27 pm

White blood cells are always a sign of infection, I believe. I would start her on Bactrim ASAP for at least two weeks.

Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:33 pm

In theory, you could do either one. It depends upon the route you want to take. I take it she's still squeaking?

If there truly are WBCs in the urine there is inflammation/infection somewhere. Sometimes the cultures are negative due to the microbacteria. That is why a lot of vets are using glucosamine therapy with chronic or long-term UTIs. I know Becky tried it with poor results. The other thing is cranberry or blueberry extracts to help minimize bacteria staying in the bladder.

The kidneys could really be the main issue. Was she ever ultrasounded? I don't have time to review all 24 pages of history again. If she has kidney stones or pyleonephritis, there may be a few other things to try, although both are more frustrating.

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