First Angel...now it's Elsie..crying when peeing.!

Post Reply
User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:17 pm


Oh, I'm sorry she is getting worse. I think if you can syringe adequate water, you should not have to give subcues (compare what you can get in to what he'd want injected). It all comes out the same way. Josephine should be able to say if there is any benefit of one over the other if you're giving the same amount of fluids.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:21 pm


I'm hoping Josephine will give her advise/opinion.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:33 pm


You have to syringe at least 40-60 mls of fluids per day. If you can do that, you can skip the SQ fluids.

I would do some bloodwork if there hasn't been any for awhile. I forgot--did this pig have any contrast studies done of the bladder and kidneys (cystogram?)? If you are doing bloodwork to monitor liver parameters, I don't see why the Metacam would be a problem. Steroids are just as much, if not more so problematic.

Have you tried consulting with UCD? I would prefer that vs. Antech. I don't have much faith in them. Why did they suggest taking out leafy greens? They didn't say anything about Ca:P ratios?

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:49 pm


"I would do some bloodwork if there hasn't been any for awhile."
-No, she's never had bloodwork done.

"I forgot--did this pig have any contrast studies done of the bladder and kidneys (cystogram?)? "
-Yes, she had contrast studies done, cystogram AND she had exploratory surgery. All results indicated inflammation.

"If you are doing bloodwork to monitor liver parameters, I don't see why the Metacam would be a problem. Steroids are just as much, if not more so problematic. "
-Not sure if you are saying its a good idea with the Metacam or not? He gave her steroids previously without doing bloodwork. If she has a problem with the liver wouldn't we know it by now?

"Have you tried consulting with UCD?"
-How can I do that?

"Why did they suggest taking out leafy greens? They didn't say anything about Ca:P ratios"
- they say gps make more than one kind of crystal and so
maybe its due to the calcium?

How come you have little faith in Antech?

It is now 18mths since I first noticed she cries when urinating.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:58 pm


I think the Metacam would be a good idea. It's much nicer for her, since she appears to be in some level of discomfort. If her liver checks out, all the better.

UCD has a CAPE (CAEP same thing). It's their exotics' dept. Your vet should be able to email or call them and discuss the case for more ideas. Very similar to what he/she has done already with Antech. Or you can have a vet post the case on VIN online for more feedback.

If the stones are due to the Ca, it's not the Ca level! It's the ratio of Ca:P. There is a ton of info on this site and the main GL care/health page on the proper ratio. It's 1.4:1 ideally in certain veggies. This doesn't exclude leafy greens, just certain ones.

I have had several brief encounters with that lab. They have been bad, so that taints my view on how professional and experienced they are. I just don't know if I would take their "expert" view on things, especially when other avenues of consults can be pursued.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:15 pm


Well I am not eliminating greens totally. Just certain ones as you say.

I'll mention UCD to my vet and see what he has to say.

I have a really bad mental block when looking at the charts of ca:p levels of foods. I wish someone could just give me a list of what would be good to feed her. Right now she's getting:

Romaine - 4 leaves/day
Canteloupe - 1pc/day
Watermelon - 2pcs/day
Carrot - small pc/every other day
Honeydew - 1 pc/day
Cucumber - 1pc/every other day
Oxbow hay pellets - unlimited
Timothy Hay-unlimited
Orange - 1 segment/every other day
Celery - on occassion
Apple - 1pc/da

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:26 pm


Do you have an accurate scale? Could you write down weighed amounts? If so, I (or someone) could use the calculating excel page and tell you where you stand right away. But we need weight in grams.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:43 pm


No, I don't have a scale. Even so, does it seem like any of the foods I give her would cause crystals in her urine??? Can you tell?

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:37 pm


Do get a small accurate scale that measures in grams. It will really help if you want to focus on diet. Greens are light and may be misrepresented in the balance. I'm sure Becky knows what I mean. The Ca:Ph ratio really does matter.

User avatar
swannie
For the love of pigs!

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:27 am


I think it might be a good idea to swap leaf lettuces in for the romaine.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:37 am


Romaine should be okay. Is that what you're saying? I have her now eating only Romaine for greens. I used to give her green leaf, chickory and escarole also.

Anyway, so far there has been no change. The poor thing cries every time she urinates.

User avatar
Pigglies

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:48 am


Romaine is okay.

I'm too tired to look on the list right now... but I thought chickory (if that's the same as endive?) and escarole were okay.

Is she on meloxicam yet? That's what really helps Mrs. Slipper.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:15 am


Have you ruled out arthritis in her back?

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:16 am


"Have you ruled out arthritis in her back?

Yes, on your advice it was checked last year.

What do you think about taking blood from the jugular?

User avatar
swannie
For the love of pigs!

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:17 am


I thought the leaf lettuces had a better ratio than romaine, is all.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:49 pm


What do you think about taking blood from the jugular?
Standard procedure when they can't get enough from the toe. My vet usually goes for an artery running doewn the front leg.

If the squeaking is new and there's no sign of a UTI - it's worth rexraying to check again for arthritis. You'll have xrays for comparison. If you already xrayed and the spine is showing well, would be worth another look especially if there are no other explanations.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:02 pm


"If the squeaking is new and there's no sign of a UTI..."

Unfortunately I first noticed the squeaking in August 2003. She has been through a lot since then with 2 different vets. The one I see now is willing and researching to try everything he can to get her pain relief. Nothing's working so far. I think she's used to it now and she seems like a happy pig.

User avatar
Becky

Post   » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:13 pm


Romaine and iceburg are the only two lettuces that do not have a good Ca:Ph ratio. You're better off giving her looseleaf if you feel that the endive/escarole are too high in oxalates. (Carrots, by the way, have about the same amount of oxalates as endive and escarole.)

Make most of the salad base looseleaf and add a small amount of romain. For example, give her three leaves of looseleaf and half a leaf of romaine.

Better yet, give her two leaves of looseleaf, and one leaf of either endive or escarole. As long as you don't supersaturate any one meal with oxalates, it should be fine.

Of the rest of your list, only oranges, pellets and hay have a good ratio, which means that diet is relatively heavy in terms of phosphorous.

If you decide to bring back fresh food, stick with the looseleaf. It's got a fair amount of Vit. C., a good ratio and is readily available. Add cilantro for flavor and added Vit. C. and if she tolerates it, give her some kale. It's medium oxalates and terrific for Vit. C.

Rotate peppers, oranges, cucumbers, celery (good Ca:Ph ratio), kiwi, apples and melon on a daily basis. My rule is one slice of a fruit (1/4 of an apple, kiwi, pear--small sliver of melon--2 inches of celery) per pig. Oranges have a good Ca:ph ratio, medium oxalates, so two slices would be fine.

AVOID:
Chard, parsley and spiniach--too high in oxalates for her

Recap:

Sample Daily meal--


2 leaves looseleaf lettuce
1 leaf endive or escarole
4-5 sprigs of cilantro
*1/4 of a medium red bell pepper
**1 slice of orange

* OR--2 baby carrots, 2 inches of celery, 2 inches of cucumber, 2 grape tomatoes.

** OR--1/4 of an apple, 1/4 of a kiwi, small sliver of melon, 1/4 of an orange

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:30 am


"Carrots, by the way, have about the same amount of oxalates as endive and escarole" -- this depends on the source. My source lists them as very low (USDA). You might want to add this to the thread I moved to the reference forum that Teresa started -- since there have been questions concerning how to do the diet. I personally think people just have to purchase a good gram scale and figure it out (at least in the beginning).

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:35 am


Thanks so much Becky! By loose leaf lettuce I take it you mean green and red leaf? All my girls hate cilantro but I'll try the Kale. They never get parsley, chard or spinach so that's not been the problem.

I went to Dr. S with her yesterday. What an ordeal! He had trouble getting blood from her so he ended up cutting a nail to make her bleed. Her test results for liver/kidney disease were negative.

Then, I was taken in the back to be shown how to do the subcues by his technician. There's Angel laying on the counter with an IV bag (with the subcue solution) and she's half sedated (from him trying to get blood before). She proceeds to describe the process to me and she can't get Angel to sit still for the needle going in. So, I take over and I insert the needle with no problem. She didn't even cry. Then, her whole body starts to jerk and the technician says her skin is hard already and that I'd have to remove the needle and stick it in somewhere else. Meanwhile, Angels jerking away and I tell her forget it, I don't want to put her through this.

Dr. S agreed it was probably better to leave her alone at this point (I can syringe her water) but he gave me the higher dose of Metacam (.35 1 x day) and I asked for another urinalysis. Those test results showed a very slight improvement. She had a moderate amount of Amorphous crystals this time.

He also said I could put her back on the Bactrim and see if she improves.

For her the Polycitra-K was not a good idea because her urine is not acidic, it's alkaline.

Post Reply
647 posts