Del Boy's Med Thread - Heart

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:54 pm


I would think a small dose would do no harm and may make him more comfortable, especially if his muscles are sore just from the labor of breathing and walking around.

Is there *any* way you might could rig up an oxygen chamber for him at home? O2 would be rx but I think some GL members have done it (I have not).

A combination of Baytril and doxy can have a whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts effect for really bad pneumonias. If nebulized, the med goes straight to the lungs. Again the vet would need to cooperate, but as I understand it a nebulization chamber is not hard to set up.

I think some have also brought them into the bathroom whilst taking a hot, steamy shower and that can afford some temporary relief. Just make sure he's thoroughly dry before putting him back in his cage if you do this; getting chilled is not what he needs right now obv.

Continued best wishes to him and to you. He couldn't be in better hands.

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:47 pm


Thanks again Talishan. I'll give him a dose of metacam tonight.

I could probably rig up an oxygen chamber but would have to get the vet to prescribe the oxygen which may be a problem. I'm not sure how beneficial oxygen would be when he showed no improvement whilst he was on it at the vet's. His lips and ear margins remained a dusky colour, apparently.

I'd forgotten about trying the shower. I'll give that a go later. Thanks for the reminder!

If there's no improvement after 72 hours on baytril I'll take him back to the vet and suggest giving doxy in addition to the baytril. He's due to be seen on Thurs but I can take him back sooner.

Thanks for your good wishes. I've been in the fortunate position of all my pigs being well for the past year or so ( I hope I'm not tempting fate), so I'm feeling rusty and lacking in confidence. Your advice and reassurance are very much appreciated.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:12 am


No worries. I'm glad yours have been well. It's like riding a bike, though -- once the skills you have are there, it won't take much to knock any rust off.

I think your plan is a good one. If you do pursue a Baytril-doxy combo, ask about the possibility of nebulizing it. Nebulization not only bypasses the GI, but it delivers more of the drug directly where it's needed.

Nebulization also opens up the possibility of using ABs you otherwise couldn't. I think bpatters has used gentamicin in nebulization. You can also consider azithromycin; some have dosed it orally successfully (I have not needed to try it, yet anyway, thankfully) but I'd feel more confident using it in a nebulizer. If you could rig up an oxygen chamber, you could rig up a nebulizer; that's easier as I understand it. The only specialized part is the atomization head.

Hopefully he will begin to show improvement and none of this will be necessary.

Continued very best wishes and support sent.

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:57 pm


Thanks again Talishan. The rust is definitely being brushed off with this one. I'm having to dredge the memory banks to remember about respiratory and cardiac problems. Thank goodness for GL!

I took him back yesterday as I wasn't happy with him. He seemed a bit worse, went flat and his breathing deteriorated further. I saw a different vet who was again concerned about his colour although he had recovered a bit by this time. I suggested adding in doxy but she felt it wouldn't help as baytril is broad spectrum and I suspect because its not licensed for GPs. She suggested O2 therapy but decided that as it hadn't helped previously probably would not help this time. So I drew a blank there . We're going back tomorrow. I'm going to discuss stopping the baytril as it just stresses him out so much.

On Saturday BamBam and I are going to see another vet about 2 hours drive away. He is used by the CCT so should be more GP savvy and open to considering cardiac problems.

Will update later.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:27 pm


Sending good wishes!

I would go the nebulizer route if you can.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:38 am


Ditto.

The Baytril-doxy combo route is afaik anecdotal; that is, vets have tried it, including one of ours, and it simply works better than either alone on severe, well-set-in pneumonias, especially if nebulized. Especially since there are so few antibiotics guinea pigs can take safely, I suspect vets have just tried and found it works. One of our old vets saved the lives of two rescues this way.

Nebulization can also be used to deliver ABs that they cannot otherwise take orally.

Continued best to him and to you. I'm hoping the CCT-affiliated vet will be more open and knowledgeable. Please keep us posted.

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:06 pm


Thanks Lynx and Talishan.

Thankfully Del Boy has survived the unusual heat of the past few days, despite being further stressed by it. I've used fans but obviously kept him out of draughts, as well as ice blocks covered with tea towels. His brother Rodney ha benefitted too.

Del Boy was reviewed by another vet yesterday having had 5 days on baytril. He has not improved as far as I can tell and the vet, albeit one who has not seen him previously agreed, having read his notes. As the vet before her, she would not add in another antibiotic, stating that baytril penetrates the lungs better than any other antibiotic. She has however doubled the dose. We had a long discussion about cardiac disease and she was at least prepared to go and consult the textbooks. Unfortunately there was nothing useful in those but she was quite happy for him to be seen by another vet and supplied me with details of an exotics veterinary hospital which is at least a 4 hour drive away.

BamBam and I are seeing the CCT associated vet tomorrow so will update further after we've seen him.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:58 pm


The heart page here has information from some studies. Perhaps that would help? There are citations that can be looked up.
www.guinealynx.info/heart.html

Glad he made it through the heat!

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:09 pm


Baytril's penetration capacity is somewhat overstated by Bayer. :-/ It does well enough to be going on with, but does not penetrate tissues as well as, say, chloramphenicol. It is, however, by far the most effective AB (of the ones cavies can take) on the bacteria that usually cause pneumonia.

Again, nebulization would hit the lungs directly.

Continued best wishes and please keep us posted.

Hilary Holmes

Post   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:38 pm


Thanks again Lynx and Talishan.

The information regarding Baytril is interesting. May I know where that data comes from?

Del Boy was seen by the CCT affiliated vet yesterday. He agreed with our local vet that this is not a heart problem, but rather pneumonia or possibly, given the slow (if any) improvement, "farmer's lung" which is a hypersensitivity inflammation of the lungs, most likely a sensitivity to hay, in which case the outlook is bleak. He felt the likely scenario is Del Boy had a previous fungal infection which lowered his immunity and made him susceptible to the pneumonia. He has recommended continuing the Baytril at the current dose, but "pulsing it", so giving a further two weeks, then a week off and another week on. The other thing he recommended was the occasional dose of furosemide. The thinking being that in guinea pigs the pneumonia is more fluid than mucus, as it is in humans.

Last night, Del Boy's breathing deteriorated significantly, possibly as a consequence of the stress of travelling and being so thoroughly examined. I really thought it was the end. However, I gave a dose of furosemide and within an hour he had rallied and seemed back to "normal". Today he has remained unchanged. He continues to eat and drink, albeit less than previously, and he has lost weight.

The plan is another review with his own vet tomorrow, mainly because I'm taking his brother Rodney, about whom I'm concerned as he also seems "not quite right". In addition however, Del Boy has developed a nasty sore on his back which is worse even than yesterday and I'm concerned in case it is fungal.

BamBam is contacting Jaycey, a previous member of GL, whose guinea pig Anselmo needed nebulisation in the hope she still has her nebuliser and we can borrow it. Presumably it's I/M Baytril that you use and not oral?

Another point of interest is that neither boy eats very much hay. I've tried several different types with little success. It would be far too stressful for them to check their teeth as they are at the moment. Any thoughts?

Thanks again for all the advice and support. I'll update after tomorrow's appointment.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:29 pm


Baytril penetration capability: unfortunately I have no idea where I heard that. :-( It was ages ago, and I think may have been from one of our old vets. I apologize but can't remember the specifics -- only that it does penetrate reasonably well, but not quite as well as Bayer promotes. I suspect I believed this simply because a large manufacturer slightly exaggerating a product's capability makes so much sense. :-/

Pulsing AB: *excellent* idea. Our vets have used this technique successfully on established, serious, deep infections. I like this vet.

Farmer's lung: mumble. If I had to take an absolutely wild guess, both these pigs were kept in extremely poor, probably outdoor, conditions. The idea of a serious fungal setting up a susceptibility to a serious pneumonia makes eminently good sense; I'd just take the 'hay' component out of it. That said, my speculation would come to the same thing -- sensitivity to any dusts, mildews, moisture etc., which would make his ongoing care tricky but not impossible.

Furosemide: *excellent*. I like this vet again.

Teeth: do you lot have sweet corn? If so, get some and remove the outer husk. Rinse the inner husks as you would any veg. Tear into long, thin strands. Most pigs love it, and it has a ton of silica in it; it wears the teeth extremely well. It can also be dried for out-of-season use.

They can also eat corn silk, but I've always been a little scared of it. It seems like it'd be a choking hazard, but that may just be me being paranoid.

Continuing good luck with both boys and please keep us posted.

bpatters
And got the T-shirt

Post   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:48 pm


My pigs love corn silks. I just cut them in about one inch lengths to mitigate the possibilities of choking.

Don't rule out the possibility of a fungal pneumonia, which would respond better to an oral antifungal and not at all to an antibiotic. We unfortunately learned about fungal pneumonias when we lost my 36-year-old nephew to one.

Post Reply