Hey guys,
My fiance and I have a guinea pig, named Luna Lovepig, that has been very sick the past few days. We've been to both the emergency vet and her regular vet, and the treatments have had minimal results. Here's what's been going on the past few days:
Around Friday or Saturday, I noticed she was a little less energetic than usual, but not super lethargic. I talked to my fiance about it, and she thought I was just worrying too much. I do tend to worry a lot, so I tried to brush it off.
Sunday, we were at Walmart and she wanted to get Luna an ear of fresh corn. I've been pretty strict with her diet, and I've tried to stick to the letter of the law that Luna's vet has laid out, but I know my fiance likes to feed her new food every once in a while. We bought the corn and I did some brief research that led me to believe that fresh corn was okay. Had I read further (which I did the next day) I would have seen that fresh corn is okay in MODERATION due to the high starch, and the fact that it doesn't digest as well for a guinea pig. Not realizing that, we left the entire ear of corn in her playpen and she munched on it for several hours Sunday afternoon. When I did her normal feeding for the evening, which consists of spring mix, 5 small carrot slivers, fresh hay, and Oxbo pellets, she barely ate any of it. This threw me for a loop. Especially regarding the spring mix and carrot slivers because she usually gobbles those up in 3-5 minutes flat. However, I chalked it up to her just being "full" because of munching on that corn snack all day long. We took her out of the playpen, put her in her regular cage, and only put her hay and pellets in there that evening.
Monday, we both got home and I noticed Luna was REALLY lethargic. She was barely responding to anything. Typically, if I pat her on the butt it will startle her and she jumps and spins around. She wasn't doing this. She also didn't run and hide when either my fiance or I tried to pick her up, which she normally does. We took her out, let her snuggle on a blanket on the couch, I performed her daily cage cleaning, gave er some fresh food, and we eventually put her back in her cage so she could feed. She still only halfway ate her spring mix. I also fed her green peppers that night (which I alternate with carrots), and I believe she finished those. She barely touched her pellets, and it's hard to tell with her hay because I always put a ton in there and she never comes close to finishing it anyway. I checked in on Luna a bit later right before I was about to go to my parents' house and before my fiance went to bed. I noticed her chin was soaking wet. I thought, "This is strange. She's not messy with her water bottle and sh wasn't eating any soaking wet foods." I told my fiance, and she came out to check. She ran her finger across the wetness and smelled it. It smelled like green peppers, so she and I assumed it was the slightly watery nature of the green peppers. Also, we noticed that Luna was too weak to get up the ramp to the top level of her cage. We had to take out the top level and rearrange her food and water a bit. This prompted my fiance to do further research, and discovered the wetness was drool. She also cross-referenced some of the other symptoms with the drool, and discovered Luna very likely had a respiratory infection. She also read that these are deadly and fast-acting to guinea pigs. It was way after hours for Luna's regular exotic vet, so I called around town to check emergency vets. Unfortunately, no exotics were on call, but thankfully a regular emergency vet we encountered had some degree of guinea pig experience and was happy to look at her for us. We went, she did an exam, she took some x-rays, and she determined that she most likely did have a respiratory infection. She also noted that there appeared to be a lot of gas and bloating, but since she had limited guinea pig experience, she didn't know how normal or abnormal that was. She sent off the x-ray results to an exotic-specific radiologist, telling us we would get results the next day, and gave us an antibiotic to give Luna called SMZ/TMP. She was extremely friendly and helpful, but she did mention we needed to see Luna's regular vet the next day. Also, she administered the first dose of the antibiotic while we were there. It was around 12:30 am on Tuesday at that point.
Tuesday morning, around 8:00/8:30 am, my fiance administered the next dosage of the antibiotic because she was about to go to work and we needed to work Luna more towards a 6:00 am and 6:00 pm antibiotic schedule. She said she'd perked up a bit and made noises when she walked in the room. She also made friendly noises when she pet her and fought her when she was trying to feed her the antibiotic. She even bit the syringe, lol. However, when I came over to wait on the garage door repairman (and also wait for Luna's 2:30 appointment that afternoon) she had gone back to being sluggish and lethargic. I was terrified that she wouldn't make it through the day to get to her appointment. Finally, 2:30 came and she was being seen by her regular exotic vet. The vet had already looked over the charts from the night before, so she immediately examined her. She listened to her heart and lungs, weighed her, and then she did a visual examination. She determined that the emergency vet was right about the respiratory infection, but also Luna was having GI issues related to her eating such an overabundance of corn. She speculates that since I noticed her being a tad lethargic a day or two before we even fed her the corn, she probably was in the beginning stages of the infection, and then compounded GI issues on top of that wen she had all that corn. She advised me to not feed her any food that would break down into sugar, like corn or carrots, or any food that flat out has sugar in it, like berries, for the next several days. Basically I need to focus on spring mix, green peppers, pellets, and hay ONLY. She prescribed some kind of probiotic to aid in her digestion. In order to not cancel out the antibiotic, she said to administer the probiotic no less than 2 to 3 hours apart from the antibiotic. She gave Luna the first day's dose while we were still there. Also, she injected fluid under her skin to hydrate her a bit better (even though the emergency vet felt like she was hydrated well the nigh before) and she also gave her a shot of B-12. Luna squealed so much and I started crying a lot. I've been super emotional the past few days. Finally, she told me to let Luna get a lot of rest because of all the trauma from the past couple of days with her doctor visits. Her final instructions were to keep an eye on her breathing, her eating, and her poop. If she was still the same by the end of the day Wednesday, we needed to bring her in on Thursday for more fluid. When I got home, before I cleaned her cage I took a picture of her poop quantity from the past 21-22 hours and texted it to the vet. She said it was a good quantity and wasn't alarmingly low. I then proceeded to clean Luna's cage and wait for my fiance to get home. While I was waiting, the emergency vet called to follow up with us about Luna and also gave the results of the radiology report. The radiologist basically agreed with everything both vets had identified, but also mentioned the possibility of a heart issue instead of the respiratory infection. If that's the case, she would need Lasix to get rid of fluid rather than being given more fluid. However, the general recommendation was to treat it as respiratory first, and consider heart issues if that didn't help. After that phone call, my fiance got home. She and I were having a friend over that night, so when he got there later on, we moved Luna to another room so she wouldn't be disturbed and could rest like the vet ordered. This, of course, was after we'd given Luna her evening antibiotic dose. After our friend left, I spent a little time with Luna before my fiance went to bed and before I left for the evening. I noticed she'd actually finished all of her spring mix and diced up green peppers, but it had taken her several hours to get to that point. In fact, I watched her eat the final leaf with my own eyes at that time. The pellets were still barely touched and once again, the hay is hard to tell because I give her so much anyway. Another thing to note is that I hadn't seen or heard her drink the past couple of days at that point. It didn't mean she hadn't, I just hadn't heard her. I unhooked her water bottle and put the nozzle to her mouth to get her to drink. She finally drank a little, but not a ton. I was actually concerned that since we rearranged some of the stuff in her cage the night before (including the water bottle), due to taking out the second level, that maybe Luna didn't really notice where her water bottle was. I know that the bottle and nozzle are visible, but I also know guinea pigs don't have super great vision. Anyway, I left for the evening and my fiance went to bed.
This morning, Wednesday (08/16/17), my fiance administered Luna's antibiotic at 6:00 am, finally getting her to the schedule we need her to be on, and she reported to me that she wasn't really any different than yesterday. She made a slightly irritated purring sound when being petted and squealed when she was being fed her antibiotic. We're both at work now and can't really check on her until we get home this evening. I've been in contact with Luna's vet ad reported her current state. She says it's a positive thing that Luna is eating all of her green veggies, even if it's significantly slower than usual. She did say though that if she hasn't perked up energy-wise by tonight at 6:00 pm, we need to get Luna back to see her for more fluids tomorrow (Thursday).
I'm currently terrified. I've read things about guinea pigs being resistant to certain antibiotics and getting no benefit from them, and I've also read that it's not good to do antibiotic switching if you can avoid it. I'm also concerned about the possibility of a heart issue when we've given her fluid, while at the same time being terrified that she may not even realize where her water is and may not be drinking enough. I'm happy that she's finishing her veggies now, but I'm extremely concerned how long it takes for her to do it. Lastly, I'm flat-out worried that she was still sluggish this morning after it had been approximately 33 hours sine her first antibiotic dose.
Am I being too paranoid? What else can my fiance and I be doing to keep Luna alive. She's such a dear pet, so young (only 11 months old), and we love her very much. We desperately want to keep her alive. Please help!
Our guinea pig is in bad shape. We need advice and comfort. :-(
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bpatters
- And got the T-shirt
It sounds to me like bloat, among other things, probably exacerbated by the antibiotics. See https://www.guinealynx.info/search_bloat.html.
FYI, the only part of corn that you should feed is the silks (cut into short lengths) and the inner husks. The corn itself is far too sweet, and the outer husks are contaminated with pesticides.
Most of us get the best results with probiotics when giving them 60-90 minutes after every dose of antibiotic. Also, be sure to give the antibiotic with food.
Is your vet giving any sort of motility drug to keep her gut moving?
FYI, the only part of corn that you should feed is the silks (cut into short lengths) and the inner husks. The corn itself is far too sweet, and the outer husks are contaminated with pesticides.
Most of us get the best results with probiotics when giving them 60-90 minutes after every dose of antibiotic. Also, be sure to give the antibiotic with food.
Is your vet giving any sort of motility drug to keep her gut moving?
Both of the vets Luna saw already pointed out the bloating which is why her regular vet prescribed the probiotic. You guys really get better results giving your guinea pig a probiotic only 60-90 minutes after each antibiotic dose? Rather than 2 to 3 hours or later? It seems to be like they would cancel each other out if given much sooner than that. Also, the probiotic is only supposed to be administered once per day whereas the antibiotic is twice a day.
As far as corn goes, her vet did say she could have a SMALL amount of the corn as an occasional treat, but truthfully..we'll probably never give it to her again. As far as the outer husks go, I was concerned about the pesticides the next day, so I made a series of phone calls to find out where the corn originated from and whether or not pesticides had been used. Thankfully, I believe we're in the clear in that regard.
As far as a motility drug is concerned (which I assume is a laxative), she's only been given what I stated earlier. The antibiotic, probiotic, and one dose of B-12. I'm guessing the vet is trying to start conservative with the GI stuff. I personally have IBS-C, and my doctor prefers that I not default to a laxative first. Or if I do, he's a fan of osmotic laxatives, like Milk of Magnesia, rather than stimulant laxatives. On a side note, do they make osmotic laxatives for Guinea pigs?
As far as corn goes, her vet did say she could have a SMALL amount of the corn as an occasional treat, but truthfully..we'll probably never give it to her again. As far as the outer husks go, I was concerned about the pesticides the next day, so I made a series of phone calls to find out where the corn originated from and whether or not pesticides had been used. Thankfully, I believe we're in the clear in that regard.
As far as a motility drug is concerned (which I assume is a laxative), she's only been given what I stated earlier. The antibiotic, probiotic, and one dose of B-12. I'm guessing the vet is trying to start conservative with the GI stuff. I personally have IBS-C, and my doctor prefers that I not default to a laxative first. Or if I do, he's a fan of osmotic laxatives, like Milk of Magnesia, rather than stimulant laxatives. On a side note, do they make osmotic laxatives for Guinea pigs?
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bpatters
- And got the T-shirt
There's no "science" of giving probiotics. Antibiotics indiscriminately kill the bacteria in the gut. Probiotics put them back. There's no recommended dosage of what kind of probiotics, and no standards on how often to give them.
What I'd do is ask that vet if s/he's ever had a sick guinea pig? Or is s/he just going off the recommendations in a vet text book? Plenty of us on this board have, and we can tell you that they do better with probiotics after every dose of antibiotic rather than just one a day.
Guinea pigs don't need laxatives. They almost NEVER get constipated. What they need is something to gently stimulate the digestive tract to move things through. If they go into stasis, the fermenting contents of the gut produce sufficient amounts of gas to kill them, so you want to prevent that at all costs. The goal is not evacuation of the bowel, per se, as it is in humans. It's to keep the gut moving enough to expel the gas, which is what causes most of the problem. And if they make osmotic laxatives for guinea pigs, I've never heard of them.
Re-reading your post, I see that the antibiotic is Bactrim, which is more generally prescribed, and more effective for, urinary tract infections than for respiratory and GI problems.
One more general word. It's NEVER a good idea to give a guinea pig a lot of a new food at one time. They're really prone to digestive problems, and it's a far safer practice to give them small amounts and work up gradually to larger ones rather than overwhelming their systems with a food you don't know if they can tolerate.
What I'd do is ask that vet if s/he's ever had a sick guinea pig? Or is s/he just going off the recommendations in a vet text book? Plenty of us on this board have, and we can tell you that they do better with probiotics after every dose of antibiotic rather than just one a day.
Guinea pigs don't need laxatives. They almost NEVER get constipated. What they need is something to gently stimulate the digestive tract to move things through. If they go into stasis, the fermenting contents of the gut produce sufficient amounts of gas to kill them, so you want to prevent that at all costs. The goal is not evacuation of the bowel, per se, as it is in humans. It's to keep the gut moving enough to expel the gas, which is what causes most of the problem. And if they make osmotic laxatives for guinea pigs, I've never heard of them.
Re-reading your post, I see that the antibiotic is Bactrim, which is more generally prescribed, and more effective for, urinary tract infections than for respiratory and GI problems.
One more general word. It's NEVER a good idea to give a guinea pig a lot of a new food at one time. They're really prone to digestive problems, and it's a far safer practice to give them small amounts and work up gradually to larger ones rather than overwhelming their systems with a food you don't know if they can tolerate.
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
What was the first antibiotic given and what is the current one? Are you weighing daily? Read over www.guinealynx.info/diarrhea.html for the useful info on focusing on hay.
You can't really overdose on probiotics. I have even used several kinds of probiotics at the same time as well, like making "poop soup" from a healthy GP and also giving bene-bac.
And I also agree both bpatters and Lynx that bactrim is not typically a first choice antibiotic for a respiratory infection. Also, the motility drug metoclopramide is pretty standard for pigs that are experiencing "bloat", as is simethicone for the gas.
And branching off of what bpatters mentioned about the vet's knowledge - One challenging thing that you will find with guinea pigs is that they require a lot of initiative on our part as their owners to be as educated as we can be. Even if we take them to a legitimate exotics vet, it is still very important to read as much as you can. I've been to several exotics vets and some of them prefer avian medicine or reptiles over mammals. Some exotics vets prefer orthopedic medicine or surgery instead of internal medicine cases. All vets have their strengths and weaknesses. It is ok to question things that are going on. So definitely try to arm yourself with knowledge as much as possible.
And I also agree both bpatters and Lynx that bactrim is not typically a first choice antibiotic for a respiratory infection. Also, the motility drug metoclopramide is pretty standard for pigs that are experiencing "bloat", as is simethicone for the gas.
And branching off of what bpatters mentioned about the vet's knowledge - One challenging thing that you will find with guinea pigs is that they require a lot of initiative on our part as their owners to be as educated as we can be. Even if we take them to a legitimate exotics vet, it is still very important to read as much as you can. I've been to several exotics vets and some of them prefer avian medicine or reptiles over mammals. Some exotics vets prefer orthopedic medicine or surgery instead of internal medicine cases. All vets have their strengths and weaknesses. It is ok to question things that are going on. So definitely try to arm yourself with knowledge as much as possible.
Thank you guys for all of the feedback. I've emailed Luna's exotic vet tis morning and asked her a tremendous amount of questions. Two of which address things I've heard on here: 1) The effectiveness of Bactrim and 2) The need for a motility drug. The rest are questions I've come up with on my own by gauging her progress.
Luna's current state is as follows:
1) She's still very sluggish and lethargic.
2) She perks up a little bit temporarily when she knows she's about to be fed.
3) She's eating all of her spring mix and green peppers (both high in water content), but she's barely touched her pellets and hay. Granted, she doesn't like her pellets and hay as much as her veggies anyway, but she appears to be eating less of it than usual. Whatever eating she is doing, she's doing slowly.
4) I'm yet to see her drink from her bottle with my own two eyes. That doesn't mean she isn't doing it sometime when I'm not around, but it makes me paranoid nonetheless. Due to this, on a few occasions, my fiance and I have manually given her water using a used antibiotic syringe. I plan to buy a medicine dropper tonight.
5) Her quantity and texture of stool is really good, which HOPEFULLY indicates proper hydration. It is a bit on the light side color-wise though.
I really..really hope she pulls through guys.
Luna's current state is as follows:
1) She's still very sluggish and lethargic.
2) She perks up a little bit temporarily when she knows she's about to be fed.
3) She's eating all of her spring mix and green peppers (both high in water content), but she's barely touched her pellets and hay. Granted, she doesn't like her pellets and hay as much as her veggies anyway, but she appears to be eating less of it than usual. Whatever eating she is doing, she's doing slowly.
4) I'm yet to see her drink from her bottle with my own two eyes. That doesn't mean she isn't doing it sometime when I'm not around, but it makes me paranoid nonetheless. Due to this, on a few occasions, my fiance and I have manually given her water using a used antibiotic syringe. I plan to buy a medicine dropper tonight.
5) Her quantity and texture of stool is really good, which HOPEFULLY indicates proper hydration. It is a bit on the light side color-wise though.
I really..really hope she pulls through guys.
As Lynx asked, have you weighed her? If you don't have a kitchen scale then pick one up at walmart or target, they are pretty inexpensive and are worth a lot to your guinea pigs. It really sounds like she needs your help and hand feeding is the best way to do that at this point until the vet evaluates her again. Do you have any critical care at home or can you pick some up at your vet's office? She needs some fiber moving through those bowels.
As far as the water goes, I would stick with administering it via syringe. I personally feel like the pipette/medicine droppers are more difficult to control how much you administer. It can come out too fast for your pig which increases your chance of aspiration. Plus you will know exactly how much she is getting with a syringe. If you need more syringes, definitely try to go get some from your vet, especially if you stop by to get critical care.
As far as the water goes, I would stick with administering it via syringe. I personally feel like the pipette/medicine droppers are more difficult to control how much you administer. It can come out too fast for your pig which increases your chance of aspiration. Plus you will know exactly how much she is getting with a syringe. If you need more syringes, definitely try to go get some from your vet, especially if you stop by to get critical care.
No, we don't have a scale for her. Do you have a particular one to recommend?
Since she's eating her greens in their entirety (just not the pellets and hay), the vet doesn't feel it's necessary to hand feed her or give critical care yet.
You really feel like a medicine dropper will squirt out too much too fast as opposed to a syringe? I find myself having issues controlling the syringe.
Since she's eating her greens in their entirety (just not the pellets and hay), the vet doesn't feel it's necessary to hand feed her or give critical care yet.
You really feel like a medicine dropper will squirt out too much too fast as opposed to a syringe? I find myself having issues controlling the syringe.
How large is the syringe? A 1ml syringe should be pretty easy. And you don't have to pull up a whole syringe of water. You can just pull up 0.3ml at a time to give to her.
Any digital kitchen scale with gram units should work. And it does not have to be digital. My own scale is digital and has both grams and ounces.
The concern with a primary diet of vegetables is that it can contribute to the creation of gas in her GI tract. And since she is already having trouble, I would be wanting to get more fiber into her, long stem fiber, since she isn't eating enough of it. 90% of a guinea pigs diet is long stem fiber in the form of grass hay. The number one ingredient in critical care is timothy hay.
I would get the scale and compare her weight with what her weight was from her first vet visit. If she is dropping in weight she needs more food in the form of hand fed critical care. It's great that she still has some appetite, but a vegetable-only diet isn't going to cut it. Continue to weigh her daily because it will give you hard numbers on whether she is actually eating enough.
Any digital kitchen scale with gram units should work. And it does not have to be digital. My own scale is digital and has both grams and ounces.
The concern with a primary diet of vegetables is that it can contribute to the creation of gas in her GI tract. And since she is already having trouble, I would be wanting to get more fiber into her, long stem fiber, since she isn't eating enough of it. 90% of a guinea pigs diet is long stem fiber in the form of grass hay. The number one ingredient in critical care is timothy hay.
I would get the scale and compare her weight with what her weight was from her first vet visit. If she is dropping in weight she needs more food in the form of hand fed critical care. It's great that she still has some appetite, but a vegetable-only diet isn't going to cut it. Continue to weigh her daily because it will give you hard numbers on whether she is actually eating enough.
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daisymay
- Supporter 2016-2021
I would go to the chemist and get 1ml syringes, cut the tip off and give her water that way. As to hand-feeding if the vet won't give Critical Care, get some of your pellets and add hot water to make a slurry and hand-feed her this via the 1ml syringe with tip cut off. You could even add her favourite foods to a blender and add to the slurry. If you're worried about the low water intake make the pellet slurry a little watery for her.You really feel like a medicine dropper will squirt out too much too fast as opposed to a syringe? I find myself having issues controlling the syringe.
We have scales at home but at least once a month we pop into the vet and get our girls weighed. So either way which ever suits you. We have digital scales like the ones you see at a fruit and veg shop.No, we don't have a scale for her. Do you have a particular one to recommend?
If you suspect wind, either get a battery operated toothbrush and massage gently on her tummy or gently massage her tummy with your hand whilst she is out for lap time. We use to hand feed some of our piggies, Jessie being the longest, we hand fed her for 5 years and after every feed we massaged her tummy with a battery operated toothbrush. She loved it so much that most times she would fall asleep. Which would make us fall asleep, she had that way about her.
Does Luna dribble all food or just the once with the capsicum? Has her teeth been looked at? https://www.guinealynx.info/malocclusion.html A very good vet needs to look at the the and more than likely an X-ray needs to be taken or at least knock/sedate Luna so the teeth can be looked at.I noticed her chin was soaking wet. I thought, "This is strange. She's not messy with her water bottle and sh wasn't eating any soaking wet foods." I told my fiance, and she came out to check. She ran her finger across the wetness and smelled it. It smelled like green peppers, so she and I assumed it was the slightly watery nature of the green peppers.
Hoping Luna picks up soon and hoping the vet vist went well. Healing vibes to you both and Luna!
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