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Charybdis

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:24 pm


Thank you Kim for letting me know.

Here is the thread for those of you who can still post on CG:
http://caviesgalore.com/forums/showthread.php?s=0a2900c54907632fcff4944b12e5a7da&threadid=26751

It is truly nothing but a bunch of vicious lies. She is saying that we should euthanize all the pigs with suspected CL.

She is no longer a member of our organization.

Nurgle
...what, what, what?

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:25 pm


What a hassle!

It was PiggyMom2Pepe, not zmom24piggies. At least the thread I found was.

Nurgle
...what, what, what?

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:28 pm


I'll post the link to the article though: CL Link

Seems that the info on who was posting what has been cleared already, I just took too long!

Charybdis

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:29 pm


Same person.

Here is what she is upset about. She notified us on our yahoo group a few days ago that there were 4 pigs in the L.A. shelters.

We told her, first nicely, that we cannot take in any more pigs. But she insisted and insisted that the pigs were in danger. So finally I jumped in and told her to "get a grip," that our own pigs are in danger.

Apparently she feels that we should euth all the dumpster pigs in order to take shelter pigs in.

Nurgle
...what, what, what?

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:34 pm


Ah, OK. Didn't realize that they were one and the same.

Charybdis

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:36 pm


I'm curious, since some of the people on CG seem to agree with zmom, who thinks that we should have euthanized pigs with lumps? All of the dumpster pigs, even the ones without lumps?

I know (hope) this is a stupid question, but their response has completely shocked me. I guess though, coming from breeders, culling sick ones is not considered a big deal. I don't think rescues should operate on that plan, do you?

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Kims Critters

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:46 pm


The ones that agreed with her are her buddies from there. She has been pulling alot of crap and thankfully has been escorted to the door. I know she probably won't have the nerve to show up here either now that her game has been exposed. I think 2 people agreed on the culling. Most are sickened over this whole situation Chary.

I do want to add that I am deeply sorry that this is happening to you. I do wish you the best of luck. Do you need Critical Care? I have some more coming in for free. Let me know.

ChunkyPiggies

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:48 pm


Thanks a lot Kims Critter. I didnt want to get banned so fast so I had a stupid user name.. QTPig. *sigh*

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snowflakey
E's Moriarity

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:48 pm


I don't really know much about anything, but it seems like you proceeded in the most humane way possible, taking in pigs without obvious signs of illness and keeping them in quarantine. You'll probably do this differently in the future after this horrible experience (the quarantine part getting much more aggressive), but by the time you knew what you were dealing with, it was already too late! And you really don't know exactly what you are dealing with even now.

You've cleaned up the mess of some heartless criminal person (the dumpster dumper). You could never assume that all foundling pigs were dangerous animals to euth without good reason. Absolutely rescues have to have a different set of operating standards, or else they wouldn't need to exist. It isn't okay to just dump a pig in a park, a trash can, or an animal shelter and hope it survives. And it isn't right to euth pigs to be able to take in more pigs! Particularly in a situation where there are lingering health concerns.

The terrible decision comes when treatment is too costly or unlikely to be of benefit - to euth or not to euth? A horrible decision either way. I would hate to have to make it myself. You are doing fabulous work for fabulous reasons. Please take care of yourself in these dark days.

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Kims Critters

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:53 pm


CP...

I don't think anyone is getting banned. Jin and I have been discussing this situation quite a bit today via PMs. I am glad she is allowing people who know the situation defend Chary and allowing Chary to defend herself. I think what was done was just ridiculous and quite spiteful. Yes, I will defend those that are being trashed, no matter what. Unless of course they do need a good swift kick in the ass. Then I'm there with steel tipped boots on.

ChunkyPiggies

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:27 pm


Thanks a lot. Tell JIn not to worry, I dont plan on being a troll or anything. I'll keep my mouth shut. I was only there to explain the situation.

Paisley

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:47 pm


Charybdis,
There are so many factors involved that have to be considered in making such an important decision. Time, money available to the rescue, the type of disease being dealt with, how contagious it is, its treatability, the recovery success rate, etc., all need to be thought about.

It is really hard to make a definitive decision, though, until it is known what bacteria is being dealt with.

BLM

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:59 pm


I tried to go and view that thread, but it won't let me in. won't even accept my attempt to register. says to contact admin.

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Pigglies

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:04 pm


Here's the links from the person in the UK. They said they will ask the vets who know a lot about guinea pigs in their vet school on Monday more, and don't take this stuff for certain yet because they weren't sure how true it is.

http://www.afip.org/vetpath/POLA/99/1999-POLA-Cavia.htm

http://www.cah.com/library/guineapigdiseas.html

http://www.animalcareunlimited.com/guinea_pigs.htm

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:16 pm


It seems obvious to me that you evaluate each animal separately. Still vital to know who has what. It only makes sense to help the pigs you can to the best of your ability. It may not mean you can save them all.

In the same way, even if all the pigs were euthanized, I would guess there would still be some risk in the environment and new pigs might become ill. Or arrive ill. One never knows.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:39 pm


I don't know the entire situation since I have not been directly involved. I do have this perspective on the whole thing:

Isn't the point of rescue to do what we can to save those pigs we can and offer them better, high quality lives? Euthanasia is a difficult decision. I think Chary has handled the entire situation very professionally with the best interests of the animals involved in mind. I certainly do not envy her position. It couldn't be avoided. She did nothing to cause this to happen.

It is responsible as an owner or rescuer to find out exactly what you are dealing with and who is infected. It sounds as if that is being done. Then, one has to inform themselves adequately about all of the possible risks/benefits on the various courses of treatment. It sounds as if that is being done. Then, each animal has to be evaluated by professionals and the cases discussed for prognoses and the quality of life of the animal. It sounds as if that is also being done.

Mass euthanasia to quickly depopulate and get out of a sticky situation is irresponsible. It certainly is easier than the alternatives, however, I don't think it is ever the right thing to do.

It definitely is in the best interest of the animals to do some diagnostics to see if their lives can be spared. The point is not solely to keep as many animals as possible moving through the rescue (although that is a partial goal--it alone is not the point of responsible rescues). We can not save them all, truly. All responsible rescues have to turn away animals, including quite healthy ones, to potentially be euthanized or abused. The point is to do the best for each and every animal that does come into the rescue. Part of this is evaluating each case as it comes and using our resources to do what we can to get that animal well and in a lifelong "forever" home where it can be cherished for the remainder of its natural life.

I think you have handled this situation appropriately, Chary.

Charybdis

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:53 pm


Josephine, thank you for posting. That was eloquent, and I almost want to quote that last paragraph as our mission statement.

Yes, we could have euthed all the dumpster pigs when Sebastian came down with lumps. Instead we separated him, hoping that there would be no more, and on the advice of our vet, aspirated them at home. I never would have done so had I known that there was a risk of airborne contagion.

Euthanizing Rowan was an agonizing decision. We knew that he might have been saved; he wasn't really sick, but we needed to find out what was in his lumps. And even if we could have raised the funds to have his lumps surgically removed, it would have been stealing food out of the mouths of our 30+ other pigs to do so. It was a sacrifice, and finding out that it was probably inevitable does not make me feel any better about it.

Some people do not understand that a rescue can't save them all. I think of the rabbit rescue people that I know, and they have to live every day knowing that the shelters are full of rabbits and they are being put down. Guinea pig rescuers down here are fortunate that they don't have to live with that kind of situation. We have relatively few guinea pigs in the shelters. Still, they are our priority but I would not take one in if I couldn't provide for it or if doing so would deprive our other pigs.

If the cultures come back positive for Strep zoo. or some other highly contagious pathogen, I will have to euthanize both Phyllis and Sebastian. I look at them in their cages now and think that they don't deserve it, and it will most likely send me over the edge into utter despair. But I will do it because it is a necessity. A horror, but a necessity.

But that someone would want me to euthanize pigs without even the full evidence of their condition is far more horrifying.

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Pigglies

Post   » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:09 pm


But that someone would want me to euthanize pigs without even the full evidence of their condition is far more horrifying.
I know, I couldn't believe it. She's gone insane... seems like some sweet lady and then wants to kill all of your pigs.

We should never euthanize pigs unless we absolutely have a lot of evidence of it being necessary (like this case) and it is for the better of the other pigs or the pig with the problem.

Just euthanizing all animals to keep them moving sounds more like something a kill shelter does. They have to accept every animal so they have to do that. When I go to the shelter and look at all the rabbits, I often end up leaving thinking it's all my fault, if only I had more time, more room, etc. I should take them all home. But we can't take them all... if only it was possible to save them all.

patv

Post   » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:27 am


Chary, I have come here with my hand out to you to wish you well. You've taken on a huge responsibility and it's obvious you didn't take it on lightly.

If you read my post you will see I did not advocate the blanket euthanasia of all your pigs. Without a diagnosis that would be an irresponsible knee jerk response.

This is how people get caught up in the moment without knowing or paying attention to what was actually said.

I know that when your diagnosis comes you may have to make an extremely hard decision. Please believe me when I say I sincerely hope it does not come to that.

I wish you the very best and commend your efforts.

Sincerely,

patv

ChunkyPiggies

Post   » Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:37 am


I think the euthing comment was directed at zmom/pigmom.. how she said that we should have just euth'd all the dumspter pigs; even though we didn't even know for sure what they had.

All of the CGers on that thread were really nice and supportive and we really appreciate you guys looking at both sides of the coin.

I'm QTPig. BTW... what a gross user name. :D

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