Bpatters-
I read one of your posts about the unreliability of at home human urine test strips, it was very reassuring. My only concern is that the center of his eliminations (from earlier today) dried to a dark brown with orange poryphyrin urine surrounding it. While the rest of his eliminations from late last night showed up as very small dark, dark brown dried spots--I've never seen his poryphyrin eliminations dry that dark brown before.
Does UTI blood spots dry up brown within within 24 hours? I have a feeling it's difficult to answer that question. And the only way to know is get a lab urinalysis.
Two pigs: tooth abscess, enlarged heart & liver, fluid in lungs and separately, a URI
Bpatters-
Thank you for your insight.
We're still bleeding, now with a little more blood in the urine and a prominent red dot in the center. I am pretty confident I'm not dealing with blood clots here. The vet nuanced that if it were a UTI, the azithromycin is a "broad spectrum" drug---and thus should keep the possible UTI in check? Also we're due to end the azithromycin in 3 days (20 days total). So I'm not sure that's long enough for the azithromycin to keep the UTI at bay. He still has clear (no longer opaque) discharge in one nostril.
In the meantime I've been checking in on his penis every so often and it's super raw. Usually it's not so purple. I am sure it was the grit that was causing irritation inside and out (more inside the urethra). Once we started having this grit issue, I've been rinsing away the grit off his penis at least every week--then I began to check every few days after the blood started to show up.
I do the rinses with gloves on (so as not to introduce things, though gloves that come in boxes are never sterile) and some warm water with just a bit of witch hazel squirted in. Then I just point and gently shoot the syringe. While it appears to rid of the grit on the outside, we still have problems with the inside of the penis.
I requested some kind of ointment to hopefully help with the pain/inflammation, and the vet prescribed some gentamicin to apply to his penile tissue twice a day. It appears to be more of antibiotic more than anything. It also supposedly helps with UTIs but I'm not sure how topically applying it to his penis (or even at the entrance of his urethra) would keep any serious UTIs at bay.
Am tempted to take him in to emergency if his intense bloat and mini stools don't subside. We suspect the uptick in bloat is from the pain that's amplified from his raw penis. His bloat is usually from pain of some kind. We've been pushing the probiotics like crazy the last few days, twice as much as we usually do for the azithromycin. Before the blood spots in his urine became more prominent, we got in an "okay" groove with a high & frequent dosage of probiotics.
The vet recommended 0.9ml of meloxicam (1.5mg/ml) twice per day to manage his current pain. We've bumped up the dosage but it hasn't had much effect in relieving the pain. I'm also not so hot on that high dosage. He's also on CBD and I have him on the Assisi loop 4x's/ day. I stroke his spine, which seems to release a little bit of pain. But even after settling in on my lap, he remains poofed with a very prominent hollow sound coming from his distended gut.
Anyone have any suggestions when it comes to a pain/inflammation relieving topical ointment that won't cause even more of a bacterial mess "down yonder?"
I looked into lidocaine-based ones, but many (like orajel) have a mess of other ingredients I'm worried about applying to his penis.
Thank you for your insight.
We're still bleeding, now with a little more blood in the urine and a prominent red dot in the center. I am pretty confident I'm not dealing with blood clots here. The vet nuanced that if it were a UTI, the azithromycin is a "broad spectrum" drug---and thus should keep the possible UTI in check? Also we're due to end the azithromycin in 3 days (20 days total). So I'm not sure that's long enough for the azithromycin to keep the UTI at bay. He still has clear (no longer opaque) discharge in one nostril.
In the meantime I've been checking in on his penis every so often and it's super raw. Usually it's not so purple. I am sure it was the grit that was causing irritation inside and out (more inside the urethra). Once we started having this grit issue, I've been rinsing away the grit off his penis at least every week--then I began to check every few days after the blood started to show up.
I do the rinses with gloves on (so as not to introduce things, though gloves that come in boxes are never sterile) and some warm water with just a bit of witch hazel squirted in. Then I just point and gently shoot the syringe. While it appears to rid of the grit on the outside, we still have problems with the inside of the penis.
I requested some kind of ointment to hopefully help with the pain/inflammation, and the vet prescribed some gentamicin to apply to his penile tissue twice a day. It appears to be more of antibiotic more than anything. It also supposedly helps with UTIs but I'm not sure how topically applying it to his penis (or even at the entrance of his urethra) would keep any serious UTIs at bay.
Am tempted to take him in to emergency if his intense bloat and mini stools don't subside. We suspect the uptick in bloat is from the pain that's amplified from his raw penis. His bloat is usually from pain of some kind. We've been pushing the probiotics like crazy the last few days, twice as much as we usually do for the azithromycin. Before the blood spots in his urine became more prominent, we got in an "okay" groove with a high & frequent dosage of probiotics.
The vet recommended 0.9ml of meloxicam (1.5mg/ml) twice per day to manage his current pain. We've bumped up the dosage but it hasn't had much effect in relieving the pain. I'm also not so hot on that high dosage. He's also on CBD and I have him on the Assisi loop 4x's/ day. I stroke his spine, which seems to release a little bit of pain. But even after settling in on my lap, he remains poofed with a very prominent hollow sound coming from his distended gut.
Anyone have any suggestions when it comes to a pain/inflammation relieving topical ointment that won't cause even more of a bacterial mess "down yonder?"
I looked into lidocaine-based ones, but many (like orajel) have a mess of other ingredients I'm worried about applying to his penis.
-
bpatters
- And got the T-shirt
The "grit" in his penis sheath sounds like smegma. It might work better to retract the sheath and wipe it off with q-tips dipped in cold pressed virgin coconut oil. That will make the penis easier to retract, and won't risk flushing any more of the stuff farther up into the sheath.
If his bloat is not resolving, it is definitely time to take him in. He sounds like a chronic bloater, but bloat can have a wide array of causes, some of which can not be resolved at home. Is he on any metaclopramide and Simethicone? People also massage their belly to help he gas along or use an electric tooth brush. I put mine on the massage chair and turn on a vibrate setting. Is he eating at this time?
The 0.9ml of the 1.5mg/ml metacam is extremely high, even for once daily, let alone twice.
As far as topicals for his irritated penis, I would stay away from the oragel as you had already anticipated. Oragel is actually pretty gritty and sticky so that it will stick to the mucous membranes in the mouth. If numbing is what you are after, topical lidocaine gel from your vet would be better. However, my suggestion is silver sulfadiazine cream which is also a Rx that is used frequently in burn patients. At the very least you could use some aloe Vera to help sooth the area. As bpatters has mentioned, I would try not to use any forceful pressurized lavaging on his sheath.
The 0.9ml of the 1.5mg/ml metacam is extremely high, even for once daily, let alone twice.
As far as topicals for his irritated penis, I would stay away from the oragel as you had already anticipated. Oragel is actually pretty gritty and sticky so that it will stick to the mucous membranes in the mouth. If numbing is what you are after, topical lidocaine gel from your vet would be better. However, my suggestion is silver sulfadiazine cream which is also a Rx that is used frequently in burn patients. At the very least you could use some aloe Vera to help sooth the area. As bpatters has mentioned, I would try not to use any forceful pressurized lavaging on his sheath.
Bpatters-
I wish it were his typical smegma, this was definitely sandy grit. It was also slightly discolored from what I understood to be his poryphyrin urine that began to show up this last March. Though I think we're dealing with a full blown UTI at this point.
Clint-
Thank you for the ointment recommendation. I think we're going into emergency in a few.
I wish it were his typical smegma, this was definitely sandy grit. It was also slightly discolored from what I understood to be his poryphyrin urine that began to show up this last March. Though I think we're dealing with a full blown UTI at this point.
Clint-
Thank you for the ointment recommendation. I think we're going into emergency in a few.
Bpatters--
Thank you for relaying that information again.
We are on our second day off the azithromycin for Butter's URI and are still having very small stools with some what appears to be constant pain--pain that started to get worse towards the last few days of the azithromycin. So we went out and got tramadol new years eve.
With it being -10 degrees the last few days, I was apprehensive about running him to the vet to get a urinalysis after hours. The vet said it would be extremely unlikely he has a UTI having been on azithromycin, but I have no reference for that. We're on a tramadol 6.5mg/dose twice a day and maxed out on meloxicam at 1.35mg/dose also twice a day. I was concerned his discomfort was being made worse from the pain relievers and the GI upset they can cause--but we always make sure he's got food in his stomach before administering. When he's not on pain medication or is nearing the end of a dose, he exhibits more intense signs of pain.
The smaller misshapen stools we are getting now are sticking around longer than when we were on azithromycin (while on the antibiotics, his stools would normalize a bit during the day between doses and when I was administering probiotics constantly).
Now with just the probiotics routine, he doesn't seem to be improving in his stools or un-puffing. He IS, however, taking water for the first time in a month. But we had also discovered they weren't drinking the distilled water/filtered water combo on purpose--we can only assume it didn't appeal to them. They did drink it earlier on in the beginning when we made the switch to 50/50, but it didn't occur to us that they stopped drinking because they became tired of it. We felt stupid for not doing something to troubleshoot the water bottles sooner.
Vet doesn't believe UTI is likely. Admittedly I would really rather know than not know. But I also do not want to be impatient and rush him off to the vet unnecessarily--especially if some of the symptoms he's exhibiting are to be expected coming off azithromycin. I'm just surprised because I thought he'd be rather better by now, not worse. Especially with the same amount of probiotics being continually administered (will continue for a week and perhaps longer following the azithromycin). Still giving extra fluids.
I understand that the urine test strips are sort of "out the window" and unreliable at this point, but he was clear of blood for a day, then it showed up again. More trace than before.
Any chance I'm missing something else here?
Thank you for relaying that information again.
We are on our second day off the azithromycin for Butter's URI and are still having very small stools with some what appears to be constant pain--pain that started to get worse towards the last few days of the azithromycin. So we went out and got tramadol new years eve.
With it being -10 degrees the last few days, I was apprehensive about running him to the vet to get a urinalysis after hours. The vet said it would be extremely unlikely he has a UTI having been on azithromycin, but I have no reference for that. We're on a tramadol 6.5mg/dose twice a day and maxed out on meloxicam at 1.35mg/dose also twice a day. I was concerned his discomfort was being made worse from the pain relievers and the GI upset they can cause--but we always make sure he's got food in his stomach before administering. When he's not on pain medication or is nearing the end of a dose, he exhibits more intense signs of pain.
The smaller misshapen stools we are getting now are sticking around longer than when we were on azithromycin (while on the antibiotics, his stools would normalize a bit during the day between doses and when I was administering probiotics constantly).
Now with just the probiotics routine, he doesn't seem to be improving in his stools or un-puffing. He IS, however, taking water for the first time in a month. But we had also discovered they weren't drinking the distilled water/filtered water combo on purpose--we can only assume it didn't appeal to them. They did drink it earlier on in the beginning when we made the switch to 50/50, but it didn't occur to us that they stopped drinking because they became tired of it. We felt stupid for not doing something to troubleshoot the water bottles sooner.
Vet doesn't believe UTI is likely. Admittedly I would really rather know than not know. But I also do not want to be impatient and rush him off to the vet unnecessarily--especially if some of the symptoms he's exhibiting are to be expected coming off azithromycin. I'm just surprised because I thought he'd be rather better by now, not worse. Especially with the same amount of probiotics being continually administered (will continue for a week and perhaps longer following the azithromycin). Still giving extra fluids.
I understand that the urine test strips are sort of "out the window" and unreliable at this point, but he was clear of blood for a day, then it showed up again. More trace than before.
Any chance I'm missing something else here?
Bpatters--
Thank you, I read mixed reviews of doing that. Some said it helped, others not. I wasn't excited about it not having all the essential minerals. Chicago has particularly hard water--and it wasn't much of a concern for us as long as he drank enough, as we assumed flushing with fluids was more important than whether the fluids were high in calcium. I also read somewhere here someone very adamantly stating calcium in water could have no effect on calcium in the bladder/kidney etc. However, there are some posted protocols for people with kidney and bladder stone issues in some of the hospitals here for residents drinking the tap water. I figured lake Michigan couldn't have water that was too hard, but what comes out of our tap, comes out of our tap (and into a Brita pitcher).
Thank you, I read mixed reviews of doing that. Some said it helped, others not. I wasn't excited about it not having all the essential minerals. Chicago has particularly hard water--and it wasn't much of a concern for us as long as he drank enough, as we assumed flushing with fluids was more important than whether the fluids were high in calcium. I also read somewhere here someone very adamantly stating calcium in water could have no effect on calcium in the bladder/kidney etc. However, there are some posted protocols for people with kidney and bladder stone issues in some of the hospitals here for residents drinking the tap water. I figured lake Michigan couldn't have water that was too hard, but what comes out of our tap, comes out of our tap (and into a Brita pitcher).
Bpatters-
Thank you for your input about the strips. I think we're out of the woods with blood in the urine finally.
Now Butter just has odd shaped stools and what appears to be large soft balls of stools. His willingness to help himself to vegetables and water more often (for the first time in 2 months) may be the cause of his very moist stools. I will be pulling back on the vegetables now that he finds them appealing again.
As for Peanut and his heart/fluid issues, the side effect we have been instructed to treat until his echocardiogram later this month is the fluid that was in one of his lungs (and likely also his liver) with lasix. I figured I could ask my questions then provide a bit of context afterward.
Is there a minimum dosage of lasix that a heart pig typically receives while waiting to receive a heart drug assignment--if he'll receive one at all?
Is it normal for pigs on lasix to struggle with dehydration when they never had issues with it before? Is this just part of the territory and do I need to be supplementing him with fluids constantly while on lasix?
Does a pig still need to have the fluid so aggressively removed to the point that it's dehydrating the rest of his body?
At this point, it's sadly my call since the vet office does not seem to grasp the situation.
According to his x-ray he had an enlarged liver and they believe just one of his lungs was taking on fluid. Upon a second assessment, his heart did not appear enlarged.
At first, he was put on lasix twice per day at 0.07ml for life and within 1 week he began to slow down and exhibit dry stools (we had stopped the mis-prescribed Baytril by this time). This is when I consulted another vet at a different clinic about the situation, since we couldn't get through to our own vet and the front desk wouldn't allow us to leave a message/question. The vet from the other clinic suggested that he may be becoming dehydrated and some damage could be done to his kidneys if he's on too much lasix.
We had been pushing probiotics daily to try and rule out whether or not it was his GI tract that was having issues from being on Baytril (previously, he had the best, most beautiful dark, moist but firm stools and was overall an extremely sturdy-seeming pig that was inquisitive and did zoomies) but nothing seemed to have changed for the better.
Back in December we finally made it in to an appointment after not being able to leave a question for our vet at the front desk. I brought up the concern that lasix at his current dosage of 0.07ml twice per day was really slowing him down and his stools had become very small and dry. So the vet recommended doing the total daily amount (0.14ml) only every other day. We tried that and he still seemed slow (understandably it may be the heart issues) and his stools did not improve too much. We were still giving him probiotics at the time and I was trying to supplement him with fluids+electrolytes.
3 days ago I nervously made the decision to stop the lasix until we could get his dosage re-assessed. Following this change, for the first time in a few weeks his stools appeared to be slowly returning to "normal."
I am not comfortable making these sorts of calls on my own but the vet office (sadly it seems that when our vet is not there, everyone else's advice is uninformed/uninterested. Then our questions never reach our vet. Their answer is always that we need to bring in our pigs right away, without considering our questions) wasn't much help in assessing our situation. They said to give him the lasix 0.07ml twice a day, everyday (the original dosage that was really draining him) and when I reminded them that was the original dosage that seemed to be too intense, they just repeated the instructions.
I figured that I'd just end up hitting a wall by trying to call and ask them, and that's exactly what happened. If we had the means to drop by every moment, we may consider doing so. Perhaps I am wrong and making a bad decision not going in at the drop of a hat. I agree that it's best to be able to assess the patient in person as opposed to over the phone. But does anyone else feel some vet offices abuse this? Causing a bit more undue stress to pigs than necessary? Also it always seems they "forget" to do a thorough vetting while we are there. (We we're just there a couple weeks back and they decided against doing a chem panel while he was on lasix. Now they decided it was necessary) I am always strung out when we go, trying to think of everything, despite the fact that I thoroughly lack the skills or knowledge of a veterinarian. I want to be grateful for what they do, but often I feel like they're not assessing the situation/patient fully while they have opportunity after opportunity to do so.
After we get home something will have been apparently "missed" or forgotten to be looked at while we were there. I hate to think I am jeopardizing their health, but I am also not sure I want them to live out the rest of their lives at the mercy and forgetfulness (and sometimes negligence) of their vets. We will hopefully get a full chem panel (while on lasix) when we go in for his echocardiogram.
Sorry to bring up this unrelated topic/venting to this thread. I would be grateful for any experience or insight on lasix.
Also, I hesitate to ask, but would anyone be willing to direct to me to a thread where others may have vented about having to navigate the "gate keepers" and unnecessarily bureaucratic processes that come with trying to get their pigs the help they need?
Any stories are welcome! It would certainly help. There are a number of other things they've missed the mark on, and it's just been a bit discouraging for us. We feel we may not be adopting/fostering any pigs in the future due to feeling like we won't be able to get their needs met. I am reluctant to "start over" at another vet clinic. I believe this is the best place we can be. I know I really need to work past the hurtles to advocate for my pigs--but I've felt rather browbeaten lately. I am often angry at myself for not having "thicker skin" in these situations, but I know the harder I push, the more dismissive they become at the vet clinic. I already have trouble advocating for myself dealing with similar blockades from managing my own chronic disease with doctors, pharmacies, and unhelpful personnel. No matter how politely, patiently, and calmly I try to be it will just be wall after wall after wall.
Thank you for allowing me a moment to decompress.
Thank you for your input about the strips. I think we're out of the woods with blood in the urine finally.
Now Butter just has odd shaped stools and what appears to be large soft balls of stools. His willingness to help himself to vegetables and water more often (for the first time in 2 months) may be the cause of his very moist stools. I will be pulling back on the vegetables now that he finds them appealing again.
As for Peanut and his heart/fluid issues, the side effect we have been instructed to treat until his echocardiogram later this month is the fluid that was in one of his lungs (and likely also his liver) with lasix. I figured I could ask my questions then provide a bit of context afterward.
Is there a minimum dosage of lasix that a heart pig typically receives while waiting to receive a heart drug assignment--if he'll receive one at all?
Is it normal for pigs on lasix to struggle with dehydration when they never had issues with it before? Is this just part of the territory and do I need to be supplementing him with fluids constantly while on lasix?
Does a pig still need to have the fluid so aggressively removed to the point that it's dehydrating the rest of his body?
At this point, it's sadly my call since the vet office does not seem to grasp the situation.
According to his x-ray he had an enlarged liver and they believe just one of his lungs was taking on fluid. Upon a second assessment, his heart did not appear enlarged.
At first, he was put on lasix twice per day at 0.07ml for life and within 1 week he began to slow down and exhibit dry stools (we had stopped the mis-prescribed Baytril by this time). This is when I consulted another vet at a different clinic about the situation, since we couldn't get through to our own vet and the front desk wouldn't allow us to leave a message/question. The vet from the other clinic suggested that he may be becoming dehydrated and some damage could be done to his kidneys if he's on too much lasix.
We had been pushing probiotics daily to try and rule out whether or not it was his GI tract that was having issues from being on Baytril (previously, he had the best, most beautiful dark, moist but firm stools and was overall an extremely sturdy-seeming pig that was inquisitive and did zoomies) but nothing seemed to have changed for the better.
Back in December we finally made it in to an appointment after not being able to leave a question for our vet at the front desk. I brought up the concern that lasix at his current dosage of 0.07ml twice per day was really slowing him down and his stools had become very small and dry. So the vet recommended doing the total daily amount (0.14ml) only every other day. We tried that and he still seemed slow (understandably it may be the heart issues) and his stools did not improve too much. We were still giving him probiotics at the time and I was trying to supplement him with fluids+electrolytes.
3 days ago I nervously made the decision to stop the lasix until we could get his dosage re-assessed. Following this change, for the first time in a few weeks his stools appeared to be slowly returning to "normal."
I am not comfortable making these sorts of calls on my own but the vet office (sadly it seems that when our vet is not there, everyone else's advice is uninformed/uninterested. Then our questions never reach our vet. Their answer is always that we need to bring in our pigs right away, without considering our questions) wasn't much help in assessing our situation. They said to give him the lasix 0.07ml twice a day, everyday (the original dosage that was really draining him) and when I reminded them that was the original dosage that seemed to be too intense, they just repeated the instructions.
I figured that I'd just end up hitting a wall by trying to call and ask them, and that's exactly what happened. If we had the means to drop by every moment, we may consider doing so. Perhaps I am wrong and making a bad decision not going in at the drop of a hat. I agree that it's best to be able to assess the patient in person as opposed to over the phone. But does anyone else feel some vet offices abuse this? Causing a bit more undue stress to pigs than necessary? Also it always seems they "forget" to do a thorough vetting while we are there. (We we're just there a couple weeks back and they decided against doing a chem panel while he was on lasix. Now they decided it was necessary) I am always strung out when we go, trying to think of everything, despite the fact that I thoroughly lack the skills or knowledge of a veterinarian. I want to be grateful for what they do, but often I feel like they're not assessing the situation/patient fully while they have opportunity after opportunity to do so.
After we get home something will have been apparently "missed" or forgotten to be looked at while we were there. I hate to think I am jeopardizing their health, but I am also not sure I want them to live out the rest of their lives at the mercy and forgetfulness (and sometimes negligence) of their vets. We will hopefully get a full chem panel (while on lasix) when we go in for his echocardiogram.
Sorry to bring up this unrelated topic/venting to this thread. I would be grateful for any experience or insight on lasix.
Also, I hesitate to ask, but would anyone be willing to direct to me to a thread where others may have vented about having to navigate the "gate keepers" and unnecessarily bureaucratic processes that come with trying to get their pigs the help they need?
Any stories are welcome! It would certainly help. There are a number of other things they've missed the mark on, and it's just been a bit discouraging for us. We feel we may not be adopting/fostering any pigs in the future due to feeling like we won't be able to get their needs met. I am reluctant to "start over" at another vet clinic. I believe this is the best place we can be. I know I really need to work past the hurtles to advocate for my pigs--but I've felt rather browbeaten lately. I am often angry at myself for not having "thicker skin" in these situations, but I know the harder I push, the more dismissive they become at the vet clinic. I already have trouble advocating for myself dealing with similar blockades from managing my own chronic disease with doctors, pharmacies, and unhelpful personnel. No matter how politely, patiently, and calmly I try to be it will just be wall after wall after wall.
Thank you for allowing me a moment to decompress.
-
Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
I don't know what the best lasix dose would be (I don't have a medical background) but do know that the most common reason for dry stools is not eating enough. Illness and antibiotics can affect appetite. Are you weighing daily and hand feeding if needed? You are certainly welcome to syringe extra fluids if needed.
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