Slight diarrhea, not acting 100% himself

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sef1268
Supporter in 2019

Post   » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:46 pm


I would not recommend giving him anything for bloat, based on what you have described.

Staring into space can be pain related, but that doesn't sound like what you're seeing here. I'm not sure that any of ours have ever done that.

amberkenn2016

Post   » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:58 pm


Oh okay, and today he has been more sleepy than usual. We did just introduce him to Morty so that might have made him exhausted. He's also chattered his teeth at me a couple of times in the past couple of days, but Im thinking he's annoyed with me hovering over him. I'm just not sure how to read him sometimes, and especially since the loss of George I've been watching over him so much.

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Lynx
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Post   » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:52 pm


The chattering can be a sign of pain.

amberkenn2016

Post   » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:17 am


Lynx, I've thought that too, but he never chattered at me before his cage mate died. It was only after when I was spending alot of time with him, so that's why I think it's likely just him telling me to stop being a helicopter. But we did switch our pellets over to Oxbow the week before his cage mate's death. Is it at all possible for the Oxbow to have that much of an effect on him? Especially stones in such a short amount of time?

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Lynx
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Post   » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:28 am


It seems to me people in the past complained about the form of the added calcium in the Oxbow pellets. I do not know if they have changed their formulation.

It used to be the calcium in KMS Hayloft pellets was a better form. What kind of pellets were you giving before you started the Oxbow? I take it you are giving timothy pellets and not alfalfa pellets?

bpatters
And got the T-shirt

Post   » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:45 am


Oxbow did change their calcium source and also reduced the amount of calcium in the pellets.

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sef1268
Supporter in 2019

Post   » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:27 pm


It was calcium carbonate. I contacted Oxbow many years ago to inquire about that particular ingredient and a possible connection to calcium carbonate stone formation in guinea pigs, but they became very defensive about it and stopped responding to my emails. To this day I'm not a big Oxbow fan.

amberkenn2016

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:29 am


Lynx- Yes, he was given Timothy hay pellets, however they weren't the ones I would have bought for him. They were a cheaper kind of pellets with colorful additives to them, and my dad thought those were okay to give him. He was doing pretty good on those, but I wanted to switch him over to a different pellet gradually, thus the Oxbow.

And I appreciate all of the replies, I had a feeling the Oxbow pellets could have been the culprit. I've now switched him over to a brand that I saw to be closest to the calcium/phosphorus ratio for what people have seen to reduce stone formation. It's a brand I gave to my other piggies in the past and never had an issue with it, so I'm going to keep an eye on him from this point on. He's finishing up his antibiotics tomorrow and I want to get another urinalysis possibly to see if the UTI was cleared up.

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sef1268
Supporter in 2019

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:19 am


You mis-read. Oxbow's newer adult formula without calcium carbonate is perfectly fine to feed. It is, in fact, one of only two brands here that most of us use or recommend (the other being KMS Hayloft).

amberkenn2016

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:05 pm


Oh okay, I'm still skeptical of it due to the fact that I never noticed calcium deposits in his urine until I made the switch to Oxbow, so I'll continue on with the new brand I found.

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sef1268
Supporter in 2019

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:15 pm


What is the brand?

amberkenn2016

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:40 pm


It's Kaytee, but it doesn't have any additives like seeds or colorful stuff in it, just Timothy pellets. George and Fred both had it for their whole lives and never developed calcium deposits, but I know every pig is different. So I just want to give this one a try to see if he has less white in his wees, since it hasn't failed me yet.

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sef1268
Supporter in 2019

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:01 pm


Unfortunately, Kaytee is considered a lesser quality pellet, and is very high in calcium and lower in fiber. If you look at the ingredients (I assume you are using Kaytee Timothy Complete), it contains alfalfa as well as calcium carbonate. You can compare the analysis to Oxbow below:

Kaytee Timothy Complete
Crude Protein (min.) 14.0%
Crude Fat (min.) 2.0%
Crude Fiber (max.) 23.0%
Moisture (max.) 12.0%
Calcium (min.) 0.4%
Calcium (max.) 0.9%
Phosphorus (min.) 0.4%
Salt (min.) 0.25%
Salt (max.) 0.75%
Ascorbic Acid (min.) 100 mg/lb

Oxbow Adult Essentials
Crude Protein (min) 14.00%
Crude Fat (min) 2.00%
Crude Fiber (min) 25.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 28.00%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Calcium (min) 0.35%
Calcium (max) 0.75%
Phosphorus (min) 0.25%
Vitamin A (min) 10,000 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid (Vit C.) (min) 250 mg/kg
Vitamin D3 (min) 900 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min) 190 IU/kg

amberkenn2016

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:27 pm


Is there alot of evidence to back the idea that the right ratio of calcium to phosphorus will help prevent the possibility of stones? If it is 1.33, then it would appear to me that the Oxbow wouldn't fit very well to that. If we're going by the maximum calcium and divide that by the phosphorus, you'd get a ratio of 3. If I wanted to compare the same with the Kaytee, the ratio would be close to 2.25, which would be closer to the 1.33. And these would be the maximums, so the ratio would vary.

The reason I picked the Kaytee would be due to the lower ratio, but if the ca/phos ratio isn't supported, then I might just make the switch back.

I don't mean to argue by saying this but I just want to make sure I'm making the right decision for him. Prevention is the best medicine IMO.

bpatters
And got the T-shirt

Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:27 pm


As Sef said, on this thread or another one, a lot used to be made of the Ca:P ratio. But it became apparent that pigs differed widely in how they processed calcium, and that genetics and/or personal make-up have a lot more to do with it that any food ratio.

Two cases:

One, I had littermate sows who had the same diet, same living conditions, etc. One developed bladder stones twice, in spite of being on a low calcium diet her whole life. The other never did.

Two, a friend of mine had a boar that lived to be over eight. She fed him high calcium foods all his life, and he never had the least bit of trouble with bladder stones or sludge.

I realize the two anecdotes don't constitute scientific proof. But I think you can stop worrying about the Ca:P ratios. Calcium metabolism is a lot more complicated than that, and is not well understood. The best things you can do are to keep the total calcium intake fairly low, and pray to the guinea pig gods that you've got pigs that aren't prone to stones.

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Lynx
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Post   » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:33 pm


The calcium phosphorus ratio includes a mix of foods of low and high - hopefully averaging about where you want to be.

amberkenn2016

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:15 am


Just an update-

Leo has been all around healthy from what I can see, except he is really tired. It just almost seems like he can't get comfortable these past 2 days ever since being off the antibiotic. His weight is good, he's eating and drinking fine, and his poos are normal. I've been checking to see if he urinates and he has been, no blood to be seen. He's been quite a bit more vocal, he's chutting more but I'm sure that has to do with finally being able to see his buddy.

I want to bring him in to be seen again and at the very least get an ultrasound done to check for stones again, but I would have to drop him off at the vet and leave him for the day, which I really don't want to do because I want to be there with him.

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Lynx
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Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:53 am


Are you weighing him a couple times a day? (you said his weight is good)

You are definitely right to worry about the lethargy. Is he showing any signs of pain?
www.guinealynx.info/pain.html

amberkenn2016

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:26 am


Yes, I'm weighing him every day, and although his weight fluctuates it stays at his normal 2lb 10 oz. And he just seems to be more irritable, and he'll puff up at times but I don't know for sure if he's going to the bathroom when he does it.

He was also treated for mites earlier this month, but he's still itching pretty frequently. I have him booked for an appointment tomorrow, I couldn't let him go by himself because he gets very stressed without us with him.

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Lynx
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Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:29 pm


Sounds like a second round of Revolution or ivermectin (3 treatments) could help. I don't recall how many guinea pigs you have but all must be treated at the same time.

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