Bladder Stone study

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sef1268

Post   » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:56 pm


Becky's Stone Diet recommendations were, I think, based on the information available at the time. As newer info has become available, it's a lot less clear whether or not a "balanced" (2:1) ratio of calcium to phosphorus plays any role at all in stone formation.

However, calcium and phosphorus are both important components of a balanced guinea pig diet, and the ratio can affect metabolism and bone health.

As far as a stone diet is concerned, though, many of us who have had pigs with sludge and stones are finding that a diet lower in overall calcium seems to help. There may also be a connection between calcium carbonate stones and excess calcium carbonate (limestone) in the diet.

moodysmom

Post   » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:53 pm


What is the the status of the bladder stone studies? Moody has a large stone and has been on a critical care/cranberry juice w/extra vitamin C diet (with baytril for any related uti/kidney infection issues) now for three weeks, but is passing sand and is having trouble urinating. Follow up x-rays are scheduled for next Friday.

His vet mentioned that goats often have success with ammonia chloride and non-steriodale anti-inflamitories. Does anyone know if this has been tried in cavies?

Moody is 5 1/2, so surgery is not out of the question.

User avatar
sef1268

Post   » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:35 pm


I can't remember what kind of urinary calculi goats are prone to (struvite?), but the use of ammonium chloride is not used in the treatment of stones in guinea pigs.

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Piggywig

Post   » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:04 pm


Jester has another bladder stone. This one is identical in size and shape and in the same place as one he somehow managed to pass this summer, the Saturday before he was to have surgery to remove it on Monday, bless him. I would never have thought he could pass such a thing.

I was unable to find the stone to have in analyzed, because I never, ever dreamed that he could pass a stone like this. I thought these photos might help someone, so I'm posting them here. Hopefully he can pass this one too. He is currently getting extra fluids, metacam, I believe it is butorphenol, and Baytril. Am going to get cranberry juice and corn silks tonight.

Image
jesbladderstoneside by friend2kitties2011, on Flickr

Image
jesbladderstoneback by friend2kitties2011, on Flickr


This one, bigger:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/friend2kitties2011/6426224787/i ... am/lightbox/

He hasn't showed blood in his urine or signs of pain since his vet trip yesterday. I hope these radiographs will be helpful to someone.

lorraine02

Post   » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:49 am


I didn't have an pet now , and if they are ill , what can I fo first ?

User avatar
pigjes
Cavy Comic

Post   » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:30 am


The university clinic for exotic pets in Utrecht, Netherlands, says that the formation of bladder grit and stones, in an otherwise healthy pig, can be caused genetically and most certainly because we all feed too much calcium to pigs. 50% gets absorbed in the body. They say pigs needs a 0.3% calcium diet, always. Not once, not even as a treat, is a higher calcium item allowed.

they also said that the cranberry I gave, plus Chilintong, Chanca Piedra, etc, are all addressing the problem, not tackling the issue, so I had to stop them too.

I lost a pig because of genetic kidney issues, which led to gritty pee and stones. I am keeping her twin sister alive with that diet, as she has the same genetic issues. I see no more gritty pee, plus the pig is remarkably happier since the diet change.

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AldenM1
Supporter in '16

Post   » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:29 am


I don't understand the second paragraph. I'd been hoping to learn more about Chilintong and maybe use it... why is it bad?

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pigjes
Cavy Comic

Post   » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:09 am


Department head vet said that using stuff like Chilintong, cranberry, Chanca Piedra only addresses the issue, but not fix the cause. He is right of course. It's like people who take high cholesterol meds and still eat tons of fatty food that causes it.

He meant that a low calcium diet will be effective to attack the issues, so cranberry and all the rest becomes obsolete. He also was not keen on a lifelong treatment with stuff like Chanca Piedra and so, as it might have side-effects. Well, he was right too, as my pigs got incredibly farty from Chanca tea, after it had been bought and used for 2 months. I didn't even try the Chilintong yet, I was about to order it. If I kept giving Chanca, it probably would have caused diarrhea or bloat.

Cranberry is OK to help with bladder infections, not as a main med to battle a bladder infection. But he meant if cranberry is used to prevent bladder infections, caused by gritty pee and stones damaging the bladder wall, it's best to address the calcium issue than to give cranberry all the time. I hope that made it clear.

He was right, I know. My diet was not that bad, regarding calcium, compared to many pig owners. Still not good enough, not low enough. I keep strict to the new diet now and I can clearly see the change. Woozy is now off cranberry, off herbal remedies and she is doing better than ever before.

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ElvisTCB

Post   » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:16 am


pigjes, do you have your new diet posted anywhere?

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AldenM1
Supporter in '16

Post   » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:04 pm


Please.

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pigjes
Cavy Comic

Post   » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:15 am


I will put it in here. First of all, the water served to the pigs needs to be as much calcium free as possible. I have an electromagnetic decalcifier on my main water supply and installed a Brita filter, to get the rest out.

I have a sunlight bulb, but it's not allowed to be switched on over 20 minutes a day, so there won't be too much vitamin D formed, as vitamin D helps to absorb calcium into the body. Pigs need vitamin D, but not too much.

I use only vegs which contain 0.3% calcium or lower. There is a list here on GL that tells you the calcium content in vegs. I had to switch to Timothy hay to offer low calcium hay.

I tried a pellets-less diet, but that caused serious bloat. So, I use JR Farm grainless pellets now, which contain 0.4% calcium. I mix that with dried vegs and herbs, with 0.3% calcium or less, so the mixture is average within limits. That's the lowest calcium pellet I could find, by the way.

I am not allowed to give any vegs, not even as a treat, not even once, with higher calcium value. Some store bought treats for pigs also contain a lot of calcium, so those are not allowed either.

User avatar
sef1268

Post   » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:42 pm


I don't understand. How does one determine the percentage of calcium in any given vegetable? Most food databases express this in milligrams or micrograms; is there a way to calculate this?

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:05 pm


I am guessing that the 0.4% is based on dry weight. You can calculate it with the info the USDA provides.

SardonicSmile

Post   » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:07 am


Pigjes do you know what your vet thinks about eurologist? It is the only medication my pig is on right now.

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pigjes
Cavy Comic

Post   » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 am


He says the same thing about Eurologist as Chanca Piedra, Shilintong, etc: they all address the problem, not tackle the cause. Plus, he's not a fan of treating a pig with it for it's entire life, due to possible side-effects.

User avatar
sef1268

Post   » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:50 am


You can calculate it with the info the USDA provides.
Okay. So if you look on the USDA Nutrient Database for 100 grams of green leaf lettuce:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

...it gives a value of 36 milligrams. This means that in a 100 gram serving of green leaf lettuce, the calcium content is 36%--right? If we're shooting for not more than .4% of calcium in a food, how do we extrapolate that down?

SardonicSmile

Post   » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:05 pm


100 gram = 1000mg

36mg in 1000mg = 0,036%

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sef1268

Post   » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:55 pm


Ahhhh!!!! Convert to milligrams. That was the missing link. :)

Thanks, SardonicSmile!

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:13 pm


Okay, but I object to using the raw weight when lots of that is water. You can't necessarily compare one food to another if you don't account for different water weights.

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sef1268

Post   » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:58 pm


Lynx, you had mentioned using the USDA database, so that's what I was looking at. I'm totally game if there's a better/more accurate way to determine this.

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