Piggies Choice high calcium pellet to prevent kidney stones?

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Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:51 pm


That will be very interesting to track. Will you be using the original Sherwood formula (alfalfa-based) or their new timothy-based stuff?

JJGiebz
Make Good Choices

Post   » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:20 pm


Hopefully the new timothy formula. I don’t like their website (another strike) and I only saw the alfalfa formula in a 4.5 lb bag. I emailed them to make sure they know which one I want.

I have sample sizes of both and the ingredients are otherwise almost exactly the same, so I just don’t get the alfalfa base. If that’s the one that shows up though, I will try it. I notice increased grittiness in my boar’s urine if he just eats romaine instead of green leaf for a couple of days so I figure this will tell right away.

I’m not going I change anything else about their diet, so I can be reasonably sure of the cause of any changes, and give it a month to start. I already know they will be mad that their bowls are less full, I just hope I can handle all that side eye.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:20 am


It's a bit of a gamble, but I'd be curious to know if you notice increased deposits on their alfalfa pellets in particular, since they have staunchly maintained that there is no correlation between sludge/stones and excess calcium. I suppose, though, that their argument would be, "See? The excess calcium is passing harmlessly out of the body through the urine." That, or they would try to sell you their bladder supplement.

Do keep us regularly posted, okay? I'm going to be following this with great interest.

SSLee

Post   » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:25 pm


Last year, my two piggies went through two 4.5 pound bags of the Sherwood alfalfa pellets and I didn't notice any increase in the deposits. Some piggies had problems switching to the Sherwood pellets but my girls did not. In fact, I've switched pellets numerous times and each time it was seamless. Right now I am using a combination of KMS and Oxbow Garden Select. The recommendation from Sherwood is to also decrease the amount of veggies thereby leading to increase of the hay consumption. Unfortunately that part did not work out for my girls. I caved in to their wheeking for more veggies. I'm thinking of trying out the Sherwood timothy hay pellets next and also looking forward to reading JJGiebz's feedback.

I have been giving my piggies Oxbow supplements for over two years now and the urinary one is part of the rotation. I give them a different (digestive, urinary, and joint) supplement daily. I used to also give the vitamin C daily but now just give more green peppers instead.

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pigjes
Cavy Comic

Post   » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:57 pm


I don't have a link to the study itself, that's most likely something they keep "indoors". My hub works at a university clinic too, same politics apply there. But Lynx could ask and give a link to this site, they just might give it to her.

JJGiebz
Make Good Choices

Post   » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:55 pm


I will definitely keep you all posted! I heard back from Sherwood and they confirmed they shipped the Timothy blend, so I at least feel better about that.

I’m with you, SSLee, there’s no way I can cut their veggies. They don’t get a lot of veggies anyway, and I think there would be a revolt. Same on the vitamin C cookie. They are both good hay eaters, even with the oxbow pellets, so I’m really curious to find out if the eat even MORE hay on less pellets, or if they are just going to yell at me.

I haven’t been able to get either of them to eat a urinary supplement. They will take the oxbow one, but I always find them in the cage later. Sef- I actually already bought the Sherwood magic-sludge-dissolving [sarcasm] urinary supplement last year, out of desperation. Neither of them would touch it, they ran away from it, in fact.

Like I said, I’m not going to change anything else, so we’ll see what happens!! Right now I feel like this is the only thing I haven’t tried. I started mixing in a bit of the sample I had with their regular pellets yesterday, hoping the new food arrives tomorrow or Saturday.

JJGiebz
Make Good Choices

Post   » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:00 pm


Well, unfortunately this may be a failed experiment. Despite eating both the Sherwood alfalfa and Timothy based pellets when I offer them as a “treat,” they are not eating them when offered as primary food. They don’t get enough veggies to sustain a pellet-less life so I’m going to give them one more day tomorrow and switch back if they still aren’t eating much.

Here’s a summary of the last 4 days:

Day 1: Switched from oxbow and Timothy Sherwood mix (which they had been eating) to straight Sherwood (about 3 tbs split between two bowls) They were both excited for their pellets as usual, but they ended up consuming only about half of what was offered. They are both really good hay eaters, so I can’t really say whether they’ve increased their hay intake.

Day 2: They were both really excited for their food (vitamin C cookie, veggies, hay) but weren’t interested in the pellets. When all was said and done they ate less than half. My boar lost an ounce.

Day 3: I went back to mixing the Sherwood with oxbow to try to entice them to eat the pellets. They ate all of the oxbow and left the Sherwood. I decided to try the alfalfa variety, since they used to eat that out of my hand. They ate a bit but not much.

Day 4: (This morning.) I offered them about 1/8 cup of alfalfa based Sherwood this morning and so far - more than 12 hrs later - they’ve consumed less than half of it and are both still losing weight. They are picking at it, and I know that’s one of Sherwood’s claimed benefits, so we’ll see.

They’ve both been crying while peeing in the last few days, but that’s pretty standard and I don’t think they’ve eaten enough of either variety for Sherwood to be a factor either way. There’s no real change in their behavior, other than the sad reactions when they realize their pellets are new. Still eating hay and super excited for veggies, everyone’s pooping as usual. I’m going to see how much they’ve eaten by morning and give them one more day. It’s killing me to see them not really eating the pellets. Worse than worrying about WHAT they’re eating.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:27 am


Both are crying when peeing? This is sad! Not rereading but do these pigs have stones/sludge issues?

Could you summarize the fresh vegs you are giving? I take it this is a grass hay like timothy or orchard grass?

You might want to also try the soaked hay trick to increase fluids. Soaked hay seems to be really popular with some guinea pigs. Soak a handful or two thoroughly, put on a plate, remove uneaten wet hay in perhaps an hour or two to avoid mold issues.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:50 am


Thank you for the update. I'm sorry (I guess) that they won't eat the Sherwood product.

Also without reading back through, but have you tried KMS pellets? I have been having recent discussions with both KMS and with Oxbow over calcium content. Of the two, KMS has the lower amount with a narrower range between min/max percentages. My guys don't like the larger pellet size, but I've been tempted to try them on it again.

Oxbow is a good company with a proven track record (unlike Sherwood), but 0.75% max calcium is still awfully high.

JJGiebz
Make Good Choices

Post   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:54 pm


Lynx - My sow, Peppa, has interstitial cystitis that I originally feared was pyometra. She has a medical thread - she used to have bleeding/screaming episodes, and shilintong has been the only thing that really provides her relief/prevents those. My boar has sludgy and frequently bloody urine from what seems to just be irritation. A vet recently decided to refer to his issues as I/C as well, though his symptoms are very different and metacam seems to provide him the most relief. Neither has ever had a stone (they are 3ish and 2 respectively).

I usually syringe them extra water with their shilintong in the evenings, but I will give the soaked hay a shot! They get second cut Timothy hay from small pet select. The only fresh veggies they get are some green leaf lettuce in the AM and red pepper in the PM, with the occasional carrot or blueberry treat. They here and there get a small piece of broccoli or some cucumber if I’m cooking with either.

Sef - I haven’t tried KMS, Oxbow is the only pellet I’ve used prior to this adventure. They ate about half of the Sherwood today, but Gus is still losing weight. Granted he has it to lose - when he was 950g post-neuter the vet was ok with it for his size. He’s been holding steady at 1260 for about a year though, so to see it flying off (today he was down another oz to 1190g) is causing ME anxiety! Even though he is otherwise acting normally and I’m sure he’s fine. I think Peppa is doing most of the Sherwood sampling - her weight has been average for her this week.

I should look into KMS to at least have gone the whole hog (ha!) on the lower calcium diet. I haven’t ordered anything from KMS as yet. Is it just the pellet size your guys are not into? Gus might be ok with that, he loves food and provably has a bigger-is-better attitude ;)

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:43 pm


It's a large pellet. I did contact KMS recently to ask if they have given any thought to manufacturing a smaller size (used to be quite a bit smaller under the previous owner) and the response back was that they would do so if they felt there was a need to do so.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:26 pm


Just noticed that Sherwood's timothy pellet is quite high in calcium. It's hard to read the label, but if you zoom into the image of the back of the bag, the calcium range is 0.4% to 0.9%:
https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/adu ... hy-pellet/

I'm also not sure I understand the vitamin C content, which looks ridiculously high if I'm reading it correctly at 2,000 mg/kg. Oxbow Essentials is listed at 250 mg/kg.

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