Injectable Baytril dosage needed asap

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:29 pm


I can't imagine that he has a C deficiency unless he can't absorb nutrients properly. He's been getting tons of it.

We did x-rays a few months ago (everything looked normal), but not yet this time around. I've been hesitant to take him in and put him through that... I was hoping he'd perk up some and then we'd do it, but I guess we may just have to suck it up and do it. He just seems so uncomfortable, I can't imagine that trying to stretch him out on an x-ray plate will feel anything short of painful. :(

Could he have arthritis so bad that he can't even walk properly? It really concerns me...

User avatar
slfalzone

Post   » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:36 pm


chii, no advice - I'm still learning. I sure hope this little boy starts feeling better.

Are you using any pedialyte?

User avatar
Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:39 pm


Could he have arthritis so bad that he can't even walk properly?
Absolutely he could.

But I would have thought you would have seen at least some signs of it on the xrays you had a few months ago.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:11 pm


Benji's at the exotics clinic today. (We're trying a different clinic than in the past just because they're closer and I wanted to try someone new, so we'll see how that goes.)

The vet just called me and is going to do sedated x-rays and a sedated mouth exam. He saw a little malocclusion on a non-sedated mouth exam, but he didn't think it was awful... it could be a result of being sick and not eating a lot on his own. Regardless, he may want to trim his teeth.

He only suggested two options for why Benji doesn't want to walk, those being either a spinal injury (which I think is extremely unlikely) or a slipped disc (I forget the exact term he used). He said that neither is good (of course), and he suggested that even if he had no trauma that I know of, he could have hurt himself running around his cage or jumping off his house (neither of which he ever does, so I'm really skeptical). He doesn't seem to think it's a vitamin C deficiency because of his diet. I asked if he could be not absorbing nutrients properly or something, to which he basically said "no".

He wanted to make sure I know that he's on what he considers an extremely high dose of Metacam, but we discussed how he hasn't responded to the lower doses, and he OKed us to continue it as we're not seeing any symptoms of the potential side effects of using a high dose. He also wants me to add Buprenex.

So... now we wait and see what they find. He said it'll take about half an hour and he'll call me back. I hope Benji does OK with the anesthesia. It makes me nervous, but the doctor didn't seem to think he was at any extreme risk if we put him under.

Now my question is this-- of these two problems he suggested, are either of them treatable, and if so, how invasive will these treatments be? I'll obviously discuss options with the vet when he knows for sure what's wrong, but I'm worried about that. Has anyone here had experience with either of these problems?

He also did mention that a spinal tumor is possible, but he felt that it is extremely unlikely at his age (he's around 5, we think).

slfalzone, I'm not using Pedialyte, but he's getting subcue fluids twice a day.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:17 pm


Oh, and he said that if he doesn't respond to our treatment, then we'll want to do bloodwork. (But what's our treatment?! So far, the only thing he's really said to change is to add Buprenex and to use a cream he's going to prescribe for his feet as he's starting to develop sores from sitting in his own urine.)

I told him that I'm concerned about quality of life, and that if he's not going to be able to walk again, I don't intend to let him suffer.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:25 pm


Mumble. Buprenex is a narcotic (well, you know that) and may zone him out to where he won't eat much.

Something analogous to a slipped disc makes a good bit of sense to me. Is he hurting? Or is it 'just' that he cannot walk? Not being able to walk does not necessarily equal suffering (to me, anyway). Chronic, severe pain does. MO only.
Last edited by Talishan on Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:28 pm


He's definitely in pain. When his Metacam wears off, he's puffed up and sometimes grinds his teeth.

What do you do to treat a slipped disc in a guinea pig? For that matter... what exactly IS a slipped disc? I understand the term, but physically, are we talking spinal area or leg area or what? I should really know these things.

Edit: OK, I'm reading about it online. But I can't even being to imagine how it could be fixed...

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:36 pm


Oh boy. I *think* it refers to a soft(er) piece of cartilage/spongy material that cushions your spine slipping out of place, often where the lower back joins the pelvic area. I think. Hopefully one of the med people will see this and tell us right.

Our vet told us a bundle of very large 'interstate' nerves come together near the guinea pig's equivalent of our lower back. These nerves affect movement, ambulation, digestion and some other major things. I could see where a slipped disc would affect all of those things, but at this point that's pure speculation on my part.

Edit: are you giving Metacam once or twice a day? He might do better on a half-dose, given every 12 hours.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:43 pm


That goes along with what I've been reading. I don't think spinal surgery is really a viable option for a guinea pig, so I'm not sure how it would be treated. It sounds like in humans, lots of pain control and physical therapy can help, but again, I can't imagine how to apply this to a guinea pig. I guess we'll just have to see what the doctor says, if that is indeed what's wrong. Though I can't imagine how he ended up with a slipped disc, as everything I've read suggests trauma. He's never been dropped or anything, and as I said before, he does *not* zoom around the cage, climb on his house, or jump off things. He's a very mellow pig and is probably a bit arthritic, so I have a hard time believing he was flinging himself around one night while we were all asleep and injured himself.

I'd much rather he have a vitamin C deficiency... :/ Not that that's a likely option either unless there's something *else* wrong with him causing him not to absorb vitamins properly (theory the vet dismissed), but the more I read about spinal injuries and slipped discs, the less it sounds like it will be treatable.

Edit: We're giving the Metacam twice a day right now, at full-dose strength. There's a thread around from a while back discussing Metacam dosing options, and while it's not ideal for him to be on that much so often, when we decrease the dose, he is obviously puffed up in pain and not as interested in eating. A higher dose once a day hasn't worked for him either... it seems to have worn off in 12 hours. This vet OKed the dose I have him on now so long as he doesn't start having symptoms of side effects and as long as he isn't responding to a lower dose. Perhaps with the Buprenex added in, we can reduce the Metacam dose. Buprenex is heavy-duty stuff. Aya-cat was totally stoned when she was on it. Of course, then there's the eating issue you mentioned... but if he is in severe pain, I wonder if he might eat better just because he feels better on it, even if he is out of it.
Last edited by chii on Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:48 pm


Ours twisted just very slightly funny, off to one side, very minimal, one time when I was picking him up and put him back down in his cage. This was from no height and was otherwise a normal landing -- just the very slightest twist -- but I injured my back one time, to where I could barely sit or move for nearly a week, by crossing my legs funny in an armchair. !

I felt horrible then and still feel like I injured him, or contributed to his injury. Yet he regained a good bit of his mobility and his attitude was always great. I saw very little evidence of pain.

Edit: IMHO Metacam wears off in 12 hours. I believe in 2x daily dosing, regardless of the amount used or prescribed.

Edit II: What about using Torbugesic? We've had good success with it, the few times we've needed it. They get the munchies after a while, and it's not quite as doping as Buprenex.
Last edited by Talishan on Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:54 pm


How long did it take him to regain mobility? Also, do you think the pain will decrease over time with proper treatment? (I have NO idea what that means, but I'm guessing anti-inflammatories, pain medication, trying to get the pig more mobile, and giving him time to heal? Some kind of piggy physical therapy?)

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:00 pm


Limited mobility, a few weeks -- maybe a couple of months. More mobility -- a few more weeks.

Ours didn't appear to be in pain, at least not severe, from whatever was causing the mobility problem, so your case may be a little different. Giving him time to heal, pain med sufficient enough to allow him to eat and rest comfortably, a form (??) of physical therapy, maybe -- ? We didn't pursue formal therapy with ours, but we would work with him -- help him to walk by gently lifting him up and moving him; putting vegetables within reach but to where he had to move just a little tiny bit to get them, stuff like that. This is also the same pig we gave the warm damp cloth soaks to.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:12 pm


OK, it's been an hour. Call me already, Mr. Doctor Man!

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:14 pm


IMHO give him 15-20 minutes, then you call him.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:51 pm


While I'm still killing time... This is the clinic Benji went to today. He's seeing Dr. Dan (see the staff page).

http://www.birdandexotic.com/

The vet he's seeing sounds impressive. He specializes in orthopedic and microsurgical techniques.

I'm giving him a few more minutes, then I'm going to call. I don't want to be one of *those* high-maintenance clients who doesn't understand that sometimes things take longer than planned or emergencies come in and whatnot.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:06 pm


Just called, and apparently they haven't gotten to Benji yet... something came up or something. But to be fair, they took him as a drop-off even though they were full today, so I can't really complain.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:23 pm


It's Dr. Dan's practice -- to be seen by the vet who's established the practice is generally in my experience a good thing.

Keep us posted.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:20 pm


It is a herniated disc. We're starting him on steroids and Buprenex (discontinuing Metacam). He said it could take up to a couple of weeks to see improvement if he's going to improve. He said if we don't see it in a couple of weeks, there's really nothing else we can do.

I'm going to pick him up now.

PS- I think he said this disc was around vertebrae 10, which is higher than he would expect to see one on a guinea pig. Not that it really means anything.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:15 pm


How old is Benji?

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:46 pm


Funny you should ask that, Talishan. I adopted Benji in 2003 and we assumed he was about a year old then. Dr. Dan told me tonight that he thinks Benji is probably 1-2 years older than I think he is, for a couple of reasons-- He is developing arthritis in his knee joints AND he has some osteoarthritis developing in his lower spine. He says that even if he recovers (well, as best he can) from this slipped disc, he expects that "he'll always be a gimpy pig".

We talked for a long time, and I absolutely ADORE this vet. He does tons of continuing education and publishes a lot of articles. Apparently our animal shelter uses him exclusively for exotic neuters. We talked about my old vet (who will remain unnamed) that killed one of my pigs when she knicked his urethra during a neuter... I explained to him that part of the reason I came to him with Benji is because I wanted to try someone new after that episode. He said he wouldn't say anything bad about another vet, but he admitted that he won't refer people to her.

This guy really knows his stuff. I think once we talked some and he realized how serious I am about pigs, he said that if Benji doesn't respond to the treatment we're trying now to please call him and he WILL give me some other things to try, though nothing is a sure bet. He says that unfortunately, while he could do surgery on a rat with a slipped disc, he won't try it on a guinea pig (and I wouldn't have him try), and that especially considering where Benji's injury is located, he'd never survive a surgery to try to repair it (it would be open-chest surgery).

He was the sweetest, most caring and intelligent man, and he went in and gave me a 30% discount when he found out I work for a vet. Totally awesome vet, that fella is! He's positively overflowing with information and insisted that I call him ANYTIME for anything. He also kept apologizing profusely about how long it took with Benji today, even though I told him not to worry about it one bit. I was just glad they fit him in today!

I know that Benji's situation is potentially very grave depending on how he reacts to the medications, but just talking to Dr. Dan makes me feel SO much better. I'll definitely be recommending him to others. I'm also going to schedule a check-up for my other pigs with him sometime soon. I especially need to get my sows palpated to check for cysts.

Also, he does nearly every surgery at their clinic, and has not once had a botched spay or neuter.

I'll stop gooing and gahing now. Can you tell I'm impressed?

As for Benji, he's a little drooly tonight from having his teeth trimmed, but he's looking as good as I've seen him throughout all this, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed and staying optimistic.

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