Injectable Baytril dosage needed asap

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:52 pm


I agree with Pinta on the cart. We considered one for ours, then dropped the idea when he developed the powerhop.

With a herniated disc, it seems to me you'd just have to be careful about how you positioned him on it. You might have to make several adjustments before it was comfortable.

Re: pellet bowl, water, foods -- we had three or four water bottles rigged up at one point for ours; foods all over the place. He didn't have to go far (or at all) to get water or food. *That* was a lot of work. We were able to reduce some of that after he became more mobile.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:36 pm


Reference! I just started thinking about Pinta's roller tonight and for the life of me couldn't figure out where it was on the site! I actually found this thread and the new replies as one of the top responses to my search.

Tonight, Benji is actually moving his back feet some almost as if to walk, but he doesn't seem to have the strength or coordination to do so. Still, this is definitely a new thing. It was seeing him do that that made me remember the Roxy Roller.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:38 pm


"While in the cart, her legs began to start the walking motion."

Using the cart actually helped Pinta's pig resume walking. Definitely something to consider.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:08 pm


Yeah, that's what made me remember the cart when I saw Benji trying to move his back feet, but it was like his body weight kept him from getting them up under him to actually move himself. I thought "if only something was holding his weight up for him, I bet he'd be able to push himself with his feet" and *BOOM!*, remembered pinta's roller.

I just woke up Zac to tell him that our project this week is going to be to get the parts to try to make one up. The hardest thing to find will be the Neoprene, but we may be able to find some at one of the local dive shops (there are a few).

I'm just convinced that if something were holding him up so that his feet were more up under him than splayed out (think sexy leg on both sides all the time) and so that it required less effort to push himself, he would be able to use them to move.

pinta

Post   » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:40 am


Roxy was a sow so you''ll need to consider a boar's direction of peeing when making the cart(very easy as long as there is sufficient alcohol)

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:20 pm


I thinking that I'm going to try to make it support his back as much as possible... unfortunately, his injury is quite far up (think spine around the rib cage area). I'd really like to have that supported, so I think I'm going to try to make the support section (flip flop) longer. I just hope it doesn't inhibit his movement.

I'm about to head out soon to hunt for supplies.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:02 pm


I am officially frustrated.

I made a nice little harness, that was easy. The base and wheels however are not working at all. I couldn't find the kind of foam like flip flops (and it's winter!), so I tried sytrofoam. All I've succeeded in doing so far is making a HUGE mess of sytrofoam flakes, having my glue EAT THROUGH the styrofoam, and getting glue stuck all over my fingers that won't wash off. I've temporarily given up. I don't have another material on hand to try right now so I'm kind of at a loss. Maybe Zac will have some ideas, because I'm all out.

Plus, my wheels are probably now ruined because they're covered in glue.

Tracis
Let Sleeping Pigs Lie

Post   » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:14 pm


If you aren't able to find flip-flops, try looking in the children's toy section of a Target or a Walmart for those large foam pieces that fit together like a puzzle. They are used as floor mats for kids to play on, but they are lightweight and sturdy.

ETA: Something like this.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:21 pm


You're a genius! I actually have some of those here in the house! We use them under the piggy cages to protect the wood floor.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:24 pm


That, or maybe try a sporting goods store. People buy and wear flipflops all year long in the showers at the gym. Army/Navy surplus places will sometimes have them, too.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:40 pm


I still haven't progressed any further in the construction of the cart, but I have a couple of new updates.

The last day or two, I've noticed Benji *trying* to move more and more. So tonight when I had him out for feeding, I positioned his back feet under him and put my hands alongside them to give him support (they normally slip out to the sides). With me doing this, he actually started pushing himself forward. He did this several times. It was the closest thing to walking I've seen him do since this all began. He actually took one or two good "slides" forward in each repetition.

I'm ecstatic about that, but I'm concerned about this... while we were doing this, I noticed that one of his front feet kept getting trapped under him, the top of his foot against the floor and the bottom of his foot against his body. (Like if a pig could lay its arms down to the side.) I can take a picture if this is too hard to envision. Seeing this made me really concerned. I suppose he could just be too weak to lift it and move it forward considering that most of his body weight is now being supported on his front legs, but I really worry that if something is wrong with his front legs, he won't be able to use a cart at all.

But at least he's trying to push with his back legs now... that's a start. He *only* did it when I positioned him properly and gave him something to push off against (so he legs didn't just slide out from under him), but still... it's more than he had been doing.

Good call on where to look for flip flops, Talishan. Zac and I were looking at our puzzle square things tonight, but they really just seem like they might be too flimsy. I also really think I'll have to get different wheels. The ones I originally got had casters, but I figured I could set them in place with glue so they didn't spin. I'm thinking now that I should just go to a different store and look for different wheels altogether.

I work 12-hour shifts for the next two days, so it'll be a little while before we get to finish Benji's cart. But in the meantime, I'm going to continue the "therapy" we were trying out tonight, and I'll probably go ahead and talk to my vet about seeing the acupuncture therapist. I'm really worried about that front foot, and I feel like we need to approach this as aggressively as possible if we want him to make it.

I just really hope he's not suffering in the meantime. He doesn't seem to be in pain, but I feel just awful when I'm trying to manipulate him to encourage movement. I worry that it's hurting him and he just can't tell me.

pinta

Post   » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:43 am


I used Miracle Glue. http://www.miracleglue.com/

Worked really well.

If the puzzle square things are too flimsy, try gluing 2,3 or 4 together for a sturdier base.

You should be able to find flipflops on the internet. Or maybe friends have some they can donate to the cause.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:17 pm


If he doesn't seem to be in pain, then he probably isn't. Take it slow and easy with your informal PT. He will let you know if something doesn't feel right, and he can probably tolerate a little more than you and Zac are comfortable doing right now. You'll grow into an in-between spot you both are comfortable with.

If you can get him up on a cart, I'll take a guess that his front foot folding over on his wrist will stop. He's not sure how to coordinate 'slide' with 'move front foot'.

What is he bedded on? Ours was on towels. They gave enough traction to (mostly) keep his feet from doing a lot of sliding.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:28 am


Benji's on Carefresh right now, but you're right... he gets more traction on towels. I put him on a towel on the counter for every feeding, and that's where we do his "physical therapy". That's also where I've seen him able to move himself any.

Now that he's figured out how to scoot a little, he's progressing insanely fast! Just since the last time I posted, he can now scoot himself several inches on the towel in just a couple of seconds. I can no longer turn my back on him for a minute for fear of him scooting right off the counter! (Before, he seriously couldn't move at all, so I'd plop him in the middle of the towel on the counter while I made up his food and meds and whatnot. Now I either have to carry him or stand right in front of him so I can put a hand in front of his face to block him.)

He's still not walking or even scooting in a terribly useful fashion yet, but damn(!), he's improving tons!

I'm off the next three days, so hopefully we can continue work on the cart... though at this rate, I wonder if he'll even need it by the time we have it completed. I can already see him developing a sort of "hop", though right now it's really more just a "scooty-slide" thing. His front legs are getting stronger as well. I'm absolutely amazed at how quickly he's adapting. I think he just needed to figure out a new way to move himself, and now that he has, he's modifying it and doing it more and more and therefore rebuilding his muscles.

If he's progressed this much in two or three days, I wonder how he'll be in two or three more weeks.

Edited to add that the main reason I'm bedding him on Carefresh over towels is because he sits in his waste so long, I worry that towels will hold the urine against him more. Of course, if he could move on towels, then perhaps he wouldn't sit in his waste as much, but I'm not quite comfortable switching him yet. He can move on the towel (not so much on the Carefresh), but he's not yet very good at it and tends to get "stuck". When I put him back in his cage, I have him positioned with hay, pellets, and water all within his reach. I'm worried that until he gets at least a little more agile, he'll move himself away from his necessities and end up stuck there for hours and hours while I'm at work. Those are my main reasons for keeping him on the Carefresh for now, though I really don't think he can move on it at all.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:58 pm


Sounds like your PT is working!! Good job. What you have described is exactly what you needed to do to help him.

When my husband and I were gone, our guy was put in a smaller enclosure on towels. We 1) changed the towels out 4, 5 or more times per day; 2) had piles of foods and water bottles everywhere, so he really couldn't move too far out of reach. We had holders rigged up practically floating in space with bungee cords, etc. etc. etc.

Fine if you can do it. If you're in a situation where neither Zac nor you can check on him for several hours, your method is probably better, at least for now. You could switch to towels when he regains enough mobility to reach stuff without getting stuck.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:43 pm


This is not good. Benji's been off the antibiotics for the URI for about two days and is suddenly lethargic, not eating, and breathing in a rather labored fashion. The odd thing is, his weight is almost the highest it's been, but he's definitely worse now even than he was this morning. He's rejecting my hand feeding... probably because no one wants to try to swallow stuff when they can't breathe well. He won't try to move anymore, either. Even just yesterday, he was trying to scoot off the counter when I was feeding him. He's gone downhill dramatically.

I went ahead and called in a refill for his TMS and started that this afternoon. I called Dr. Dan's office and left a message for him-- he's in surgery right now.

I don't really know what we can do for him except perhaps try a new antibiotic. Neither of the 24-hour clinics in the area sees exotics anymore. I'm sure they'd take him to put him on oxygen, but frankly, I don't trust them to hand feed him properly. I'm hoping Dr. Dan will maybe have a portable oxygen setup I can borrow for him. We have the small tanks at my clinic, but no portable options for putting together an oxygen chamber. I'm also hoping he'll have another antibiotic option for us to try. We already know Benji doesn't tolerate Baytril.

Having seen pigs with bad upper respiratory infections like this before, I'm extremely worried. Honestly, I'm worried about him making it to tomorrow.

I'm now mad at myself for not trusting my instincts and asking for a longer course of antibiotics. He looked much better towards the end of the antibiotic course, but I just had this feeling that it would come back. It will be so stupid for him to come so far with this back injury just to die of a URI.

I put him on a snuggle safe because he felt a little chilly, and propped him up in such a way that his nose is clear of anything-- he tends to lay with his face down on the floor of his cage because of the weakness in his front legs.

I gave up on hand feeding him for the moment until I talk to Dr. Dan. He's not really swallowing what I give him and I don't want to risk him aspirating anything. I'm encouraged that his weight is up, but I don't think it will stay that way without the hand feeding.

I'm really scared about what to do tonight. I kind of wonder if it's time to put him to sleep, but it seems so wrong to lose him over a stupid, stubborn URI.

Edit: God, just watching how he's breathing... I really feel like it may only make him suffer if I try to pursue treatment. Neither Loppy or Star made it when they had pneumonia, even with aggressive therapy at the 24-hour clinic on oxygen and in a nebulizer. But god... I don't want to lose him to a stupid infection! He was improving. He was on his way to learning to walk again.

I'm not making any decisions until I talk to Dr. Dan. He knows his stuff. Maybe if I'm lucky, he can see him this afternoon (they close in 3 hours) and give me a better assessment and prognosis. But my own instincts say that this is really, really not good.

I'm going to go start a hot shower and put him in the bathroom to try to make him more comfortable.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:58 pm


He's in the bathroom now on a blankie on the Snuggle Safe with the shower running hot. He did make a little effort to move just now, but god, he just looks so awful now. I can tell a huge difference in his eyes... they're not bright like they were yesterday. I have been giving him fluids twice a day to keep him hydrated.

Compared to some respiratory problems I've seen, he has minimal discharge and isn't sneezing at all... it's just his breathing that really bothers me. He's working way harder to breathe and definitely has some static-y noise to his breathing, especially when he tries to talk, which mostly comes out as a raspy whisper.

I'm afraid that Dr. Dan won't have any options besides the 24-hour clinic, and he'll think I'm an idiot if I reject that idea... but I've never had a pig survive up there, and every time I've left one there, they died alone in a strange place. Plus, I wasn't around to say "It's time, let's euthanize him." I always got the call after the fact saying the pig's heart stopped or something. I've always signed the authorization form to euthanize if they become agonal, but they've never done it. The pig has always just died on its own. It kind of makes me wonder if they're giving them enough attention there... like they didn't notice the pig was dying until after it was gone. I can't say for sure, but it bothered me a lot, and frankly, I don't think I trust them with my pigs anymore. I've seen their "exotics" wing, and it's completely separate from the rest of the ICU and treatment area. Even if they mean to check on them frequently, I know how busy ER hospitals get, and I just feel like my pigs there in the past must have been overlooked.

God. What do I do?

I also worry that perhaps I made a mistake by refilling the TMS. I just had my clinic call it in. If Dr. Dan thinks that isn't cutting it and wants to try a new antibiotic, we'll have to wait to dose him. When I called it in, he didn't look nearly as bad as he does now, so I thought that he just needed a longer course on the stuff. Maybe I shouldn't have given him a dose yet. But then again, with nothing else on hand to give him, it's probably better to have *something* in there working, even if it isn't strong enough to knock the problem out completely. When I got home and got him out to feed him and start the antibiotics, I just suddenly realized, "he needs this in his system 24 hours ago."

Edit: Wow, it's like a sauna in that bathroom. I took away the Snuggle Safe and opted to cut off the shower and turn on the fan simply because I can't have him getting heat stroke on me. I doubt the steam will last as long with the fan on, but I've gotta get some of the heat out. Once it cools off some, I'll cut the fan back off.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:49 pm


OK, here's what Dr. Dan had to say... any feedback is appreciated.

He agreed with me on the 24-hour clinics. He says that if I desperately think he needs O2 then to go to one particular ER clinic over the one I've been to before, but he understands my wanting to keep him at home. He think the shower/steam idea is a good one, and for now, he wants to keep him on the TMS, but for 21 days this time. He says this because he did respond last time, but it didn't clear up completely. He said to check back with him tomorrow and let him know how he's doing and to keep in touch so that we can change antibiotics if needed.

He took another look at Benji's x-rays from 2 weeks ago and said that his chest didn't have any abnormalities, and given that this just started getting worse in the last 24-48 hours, he thinks he might be OK once we get the antibiotics in his system. He said to bring him in for him to listen to his lungs if he's not sounding better, and to bring him in regardless before we go of the antibiotics again.

I'm still very worried, but I just checked on Benji, and he doesn't seem *too* bad. I just don't know. Dr. Dan also seemed to think that being vigilant with the pain control would help. I guess maybe he thinks part of the effort for the breathing is because he's painful on top of this infection? Since Benji is done with the Pred now, he wants me to restart Metacam on top of the Buprenex.

I work tomorrow, so I can take Benji in with me then and keep him on oxygen for the day if need be. I really just feel like if he can make it through the next 24 hours, we'll have a good shot at knocking out this infection.

I just love Dr. Dan... he never fails to make me feel better, though I still worry since he hasn't seen Benji. I got the impression that he didn't feel that there was much he could do for him right now except what we're already doing with the antibiotics and having me take him in to an ER clinic for oxygen therapy if need be. He said that he does have a nebulizer for giving medication, so if I feel like Benji isn't swallowing the meds, then to bring him in and they'll nebulize him. I do think he swallowed the ones I gave earlier. He wasn't active about it, but I made him chew on the syringe some, so I think he got it all in. I certainly hope so.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:56 pm


I really really really like Dr. Dan. "He agreed with me on the 24-hour clinics." I had a feeling he would.

I completely agree with his course of therapy and action.

chii
I Love Lucy

Post   » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:13 pm


I do feel like we're doing all we can... the only thing I would add is oxygen therapy, but I don't have means to do it at home, so it's one of those things where I have to decide "Can he make it without it?" I just have this awful feeling that if I left him at the ER clinic, I'd be getting a call that he passed away. If he *IS* going to get to the point of needing to be put to sleep, I guess I'd rather have to take him in in the middle of the night to do it than have him die alone in a 24-hour clinic because no one noticed that he became agonal.

I guess I'm just relying on my gut instinct here.

I sound awfully pessimistic, but I really do feel more optimistic now. I know I won't sleep well tonight, though. Even when I would get up to check on him before he got this bad, I was always afraid that I'd go in to find him dead. I'd hate myself forever if he died suffering and no one was there to take him in and have him put out of his misery.

It's hard to get too hopeful about this when I've seen so many pigs who did *not* look bad at all suddenly keel over dead. But I've also seen pigs recover miraculously from things that I never thought they would, so I just have to remember that.

It's so hard to have to make life or death decisions for a little animal, especially when none of the options available seem optimal.

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