Rare bowel disease

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Becky

Post   » Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:15 pm


Lynx and E., yeah, what you both said.

The subq's help keep the sludge moving and keep the urine concentration lower which should help prevent the formation of sludge.

Chippy has had her bladder flushed, but the sludge came back.

Laura, I looked back a few pages, but couldn't find this info. Have you had the urine cultured? If there's no sign of an infection, it could be an ulcerated bladder. That's what we seem to be dealing with now.

You have to wait two days after the ab's to culture a sample. I'd say wait and take her in two days, do an x-ray and a urine culture.

If there's no infection, you might want to have your vet consult with Dr. Murray in Monterey. He's dealing with a few chronic bladder/UTI/who-knows-what pigs right now.

You're in Canada and could get injectable (sp?) meloxicam, which, I believe, is the treatment for ulcerated bladders.

And while you're at it, get some for me! It's not availabe in the US!

Laura823

Post   » Wed May 07, 2003 12:30 pm


Piglet's doing worse now. Her urine doesn't look sludgier than before but she is squealing when peeing, more than just occasionally. Last night she was peeing very frequently too.

I'm thinking I will bring in a urine sample in case she's developed an infection, and maybe try the subcue's. I guess I don't really know what to try first. We didn't decide to "do" anything at her last appointment, after she came off the AB, because her urine did not look overly sludgey (not like I've heard some people describe here) and it wasn't like it all the time. I talked about the subcue's, meloxicam, etc. but we didn't decide anything since she seemed not too bad at the time. I went home with the intention of watching her diet (Ca:ph wise) hoping that maybe it could be controlled that way. Didn''t really work out since the only "good" veggie we can get here is lettuce and I felt bad not giving her a variety.

Becky, wasn't Chippy also on Polycitra to help control the sludge? What do you feel helped her the most - the subcue's, the Polycitra or the diet? Or a combination?

Piglet's "sludge" is not gritty, her urine is just "thick" sometimes. Could this cause enough irritation to cause blood and pain?

We never did a culture after the AB, either...her bladder was empty at the appointment and I was going to bring in a sample but then I saw blood in her urine (which she has had constantly since this started, but not always visable) and figured there was no point since blood was all he was checking for anyway and it was obviously still there. (She has had several cultures done and none showed bacteria, and there was no reason to think that had changed.)

I'm going to call the vet today to see what we can do now. How long would it take to see an improvement with the sludge? If the sludge clears up and the pain continues, I guess we can assume it's not that?

Also, would this warrant doing another x-ray? She has had them done before, showed no stones. (Didn't do it at the last appointment.)

Her pain when pooping has gotten worse recently too. Not sure where to go with that either. She's still on Rimadyl twice a day and I've also been giving her Critical Care for extra fiber which seems to help sometimes.

If she ends up needing injectable Meloxicam for her bladder, would she have to go off the Rimadyl? She tried Meloxican (oral) before and it did not help her pain (bowel).

Laura823

Post   » Wed May 07, 2003 12:47 pm


Oh, one more thing. Is it possible for ovarian cysts to cause painful urination, or would it only cause blood?

Evangeline

Post   » Wed May 07, 2003 1:13 pm


The one sow I had who had cysts cried when she peed.

Laura823

Post   » Wed May 07, 2003 2:51 pm


I don't know what to try first. It could be sludge causing the problems, although her urine does not look particularly sludgey now. It is thick on and off (when it is thick, it almost looks like pus coming when it comes out, then dries to a powder), but never really gritty...does this sound like sludge? Other times it looks normal. Or, it could be ovarian cysts. Or, it could be an ulcerated bladder...

Is it normal for sludge to come and go? If it was sludge, wouldn't her urine always have a lot of calcium crystals in it even when it wasn't visably sludgy?

I wish I knew what to do! I haven't called the vet yet because I don't really know what to say/ask for...

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Becky

Post   » Thu May 08, 2003 12:36 am


Laura, you sound like you're in a similar boat as me.

Here's my Chippy "update"/situation. She's had painful urination and blood clots beginning about a year ago. She was spayed and had ovarian cysts. We thought we had found the solution to her problems. Well, not completely.

She has had intermitten pain on urination, usually accompanied by thick mucus, sometimes bloody mucus. At these times, she also has lots of sludge--similar to what you describe as coming out as pus and drying to a powder.

These symptoms go away usually after a few days, then return a few weeks later on a regular basis.

I think it's important to do a urine culture. With Chippy, she never (except right after her spay) had an infection.

We've done many urine cultures, tried extensive AB treatment, took a tissue sample of her bladder during her spay, and recently did an ultrasound to rule out adrenal tumors.

Now we're pretty sure it's interstitial cystitis. During these episodes her bladder is inflammed, she produces excessive sludge and sometimes has some bleeding. When she's better, the sludge pretty much stops.

And yes, they always have calcium crystals in their urine. I took three pigs for the ultrasound and they all had really beautiful, snow-like flakes floating in their bladders.

We've stopped doing the AB treatment. It seemed to help, but Dr. Nakamura convinced me to see if it would run it's course and I discovered the cycle repeats with or without ABs.

The difficult part of this is that it depends very much on eliminating other possible causes. The first thing to find out is if there is an infection. That will take you in a completely different direction.

If there's no infection, then Chippy's case probably can be instructive.

I would recommend a sterile urine culture first of all. Then take it from there.

Regarding the hydration sq's, we cut back on them and the sludge and pain seemed to get worse. She's back to three times a week. Personally (certainly not scientifically), I feel it's the most important treatment I give her in terms of dealing with her sludge.

Who knows about the polycitra. It can't hurt, so I do it. The diet change I would do regardless, mainly because what I've read seems to support this as a good diet for all of my pigs.

If it makes you feel any better, this has stumped at least three really competent vets that I've known. It's all new territory for the most part.

Also, I've come to expect and accept that Chippy will have these episodes. When they come on, I cut out any high calcium foods (kale and parsley) until she's better. The rest of the time she's a happy pig. Her weight is consistent, she plays with the other pigs and seems to really enjoy her life.

It makes it a bit easier to take when I do hear her in pain.

Hope this helps.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Thu May 08, 2003 7:29 am


And of course the xrays ruled out stones for your girl, correct? How frequently does she have these episodes and how long does it take to run a course?

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Becky

Post   » Thu May 08, 2003 10:11 am


Lynx, you mean my Chippy or Laura's Piglet?

Either way, yes, Laura, you do need to rule out stones. The first four or five times, we did x-rays, but nothing showed up except a pile of sludge. Sometimes, however, the sludge can hide small stones.

Chippy's episodes come almost every four weeks, like clockwork, although sometimes she'll have a day of squeeking inbetween. They last about three or four days.

At Adobe, there are two vets dealing with similar situations involving three guinea pigs. They've both seen very similar situations. The first thought was hormonal because it's so regular, but two of the three have been spayed. Both had ovarian cysts. The episodes continue.

That's why we were looking at Cushing's or adrenal tumors. It seems like hormones have to be involved somehow.

Laura823

Post   » Thu May 08, 2003 12:03 pm


I figured it was IC, or at least the pig version of it. I saw you refer to it as "chronic cystitis" on another thread.

We've done at least one x-ray - maybe two. Can't remember. I think the last one was at the end of October, but I'm not sure...either way, nothing showed up on any of them. Not sludge, not stones. I guess I'll ask for another one to be on the safe side.

She's also had her urine cultured several times and never had an infection.

Piglet's sludge also comes and goes. The way Chippy is WITH the subcues and Polycitra, is the way Piglet is now. She will have sludge and increased pain for a few days, and then it pretty much goes away. But, maybe she would be even better with subcues.

In humans, IC is related to hormones. Many women have flares during ovulation or during their periods. I guess that doesn't really explain it though since two of the pigs have been spayed. Do pigs hormones stay at a steady level after they've been spayed or would they still flutuate?

It's interesting that the sludge seems to be related. I wonder if the sludge gets worse on days when Chippy drinks a bit less, or eats a food particularly high in calcium or something, and then that is what irritates the bladder and causes the IC flare. Hmm...

Are you still giving your pigs cranberries? I don't know if diet plays a role in pigs with IC like it does in humans, but cranberries are very acidic and pretty much the worst thing you could eat if you have IC.

I have IC and my vet's wife also has IC, as well as an employee at one of his clinics. We had discussed that before as a possibility for Piglet.

Some people with IC have success with glucosamine but I know Chippy had a bad reaction to that.

Laura823

Post   » Thu May 08, 2003 12:06 pm


So is injectable Meloxicam used to treat IC in guinea pigs? I'm assuming that's what you meant by "ulcerated bladder" (although ulcers aren't necessarily involved with IC, at least in humans).

Laura823

Post   » Thu May 08, 2003 12:16 pm


Oh, and the sludge is gone today...haven't heard her squealing when peeing either. But that might be because we upped her Rimadyl dose last night and this morning because she was having a lot of pain pooping.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Thu May 08, 2003 1:22 pm


Becky, the questions were for you (thanks for answering them).

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