Allergies

moodysmom

Post   » Fri May 11, 2007 10:46 am


Thanks. The vet wanted to do a trial run with lasix first (5 days). If after 3 days symptoms were not better, to add Benadryl. If it looked like it the lasix improved his condition, he will add the benazepril to prevent potassium loss among other things.

I am wondering though as the symptoms were intially better whether to put Moody on Bendadryl at all. And would you double check the dosage? I know that pigs metabolize things differently, but that seems huge (3/4 of a human tablet).

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Fri May 11, 2007 5:39 pm


Lasix and benazepril address different things. Benazepril can fix things Lasix can't. Ditto Mum; Lasix serves a definite, specific purpose -- removal of excess fluid. Benazepril, an ACE-inhibitor (it's a human med), beta blockers and calcium channel blockers work to support the heart's function in ways other than 'simply' (it's still important) reducing the workload from excess fluid.

You don't want to see if Lasix works, then add benazepril to support it, so to speak. They work together, differently, on different things. If there's no excess fluid present, Lasix won't help. But benazepril very well might.

Benadryl is generally well-tolerated in cavies, but the dose you were given is far higher than any I have seen here or had recommended by my vets.

https://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37522

"Excerpted from an email from my veterinarian to me:

'0.25 to 1 mg/lb body weight every 8 to 12 hours, so for a 2 lb cavy, you would give up to 2 mg dose. Children's benadryl liquid is 12.5 mg/5 ml (tsp), so without a calculator the top dose would be roughly 1 ml (or less of course).' "

moodysmom

Post   » Sat May 12, 2007 12:55 am


Thank you again. Yes, I do understand that lasix and benazephril are different. Just telling you what my vet indicated. He may have other reasons for the trial of lasix that I just didn't completely process in the explanation.

Thanks for the Benadryl check. That sounds more like what I might have expected.

I appreciate the help. It makes a little more sense to me.

Moody is doing well this evening.

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Sat May 12, 2007 1:00 am


Josephine, if you see this I am curious why many vets want to give lasix first and then an ace inhibitor when symptoms become more severe for the common animals (dogs). That seems to be protocal but I don't know why. Is that an older point of view maybe?

moodysmom

Post   » Sat May 12, 2007 5:36 pm


Actually, the vet's explanation seemed to make a lot of sense at the time. He is treating excess fluid on the heart - while Moody's heart appears slightly enlarged, it is sometimes difficult to be precise on this - hence the trial run with Lasix. Because the Lasix triggers water loss in the heart, the pig's physiological response may be to try to increase fluid intake, even though Lasix doesn't decrease overall water levels. This increased flluid intake could cause the pig to decrease his potassium levels to a dangerous level. The ACE inhibitors block this (or inhibit) this physiological response and help to keep the pig's potassium levels to a normal range. My understanding is that this is a long-term risk with Lasix, and so benazephril is commonly paired with Lasix.

As the vet wanted to see if the Lasix had a positive effect on Moody's symptoms, he was performing a trial with it. As it appears to be effective, he will add the benazephril to countermand any long-term negative side effects as described above.

That all seemed to make a lot of sense.

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Tue May 15, 2007 9:19 pm


The trial run should be with the ace inhibitor. I'm curious why lasix is used to treat heart problems first in many animals. Lasix only removes fluid backup.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Tue May 15, 2007 10:14 pm


I am not a vet, nor vet tech, nor cardiologist, but I don't *think* any accumulated fluid is located in or near the heart itself. Fluid can and will build up in the lungs and extremities, but heart enlargement is from the heart muscle working too hard. Enlargement on x-ray is the enlarged heart itself, not a fluid-suffused heart.

" ... it is sometimes difficult to be precise on this ... "

Yeah, we've heard that before. Trial run of benazepril. Watch the difference it makes. You will be amazed.

The ACE inhibitor needs to be the trial -- the first med used in offering heart support, unless the pig's lungs in particular are suffused with fluid.

Pinta? Josephine? Am I right or off-base here?

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue May 15, 2007 11:40 pm


There is a term for fluid around the heart:

Pericardial effusion -- excess fluid within the pericardium (the fibrous sac that surrounds the heart)

So it is not only the lungs and extremities that can have a fluid buildup.

moodysmom

Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 1:32 am


Moody is doing well. His weight has stabilized. He no longer appears symptomatic. Unfortunately, we could not afford another set of x-rays at this time to check the actual visual results.

The vet did double check and confirm the Benadryl dosage (although we never needed to use it)at 9mg.

Moody is on lasix .08cc and enalapril 2.5mg both twice daily.

I have found you all very helpful, and it has enabled me to ask the right questions. I am comfortable with the care and therapy for Moody. I am not a vet or a medical person, so my understanding is based solely on this discussion and the one with my vet. Both have been helpful.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 5:01 pm


Very good to hear he's doing well.

Lynx, thanks for the pericardial correction. That's an important distinction and clarification to make, for this thread and for other readers down the road.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 8:02 pm


It's just something I ran across when I was doing the heart page. There may be other conditions and terms. I did the best I could with the material I had (tried to only explain things that made sense to me).

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Wed May 16, 2007 11:43 pm


I don't know. I think it must be a combination of things--older vets do seem to use the Lasix first since they are not as familiar with the ACE inhibitors or Ca-channel blockers that are today's heart meds. None of the older heart drugs were nearly as safe, and thus, would probably kill a pig.

I think the younger vets are more savvy to the newer drugs and prescribe those first over Lasix if the animal isn't in severe trouble (has excess fluid). If the pig has excess fluid, then Lasix is also indicated.

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