Sundae came in with no signs of scurvy. I gave both pigs 50mgs of C daily for the first week they were here, just in case (as I do with all new pigs.) This was back in March. I continued to give Sundae 50mgs of C for several months.
In addition they had plenty of fresh veggies, giving them adequate C.
I'm sure he's had adequate veggies since he's been with you, and I wonder whether the addition of extra C was coincidental with his recovery or whether he has developed an absorption problem.
Scurvy, as a main diagnosis, is not where you want to go, and I'm really surprised that Dr. K. even made this suggestion, given his history.
Without all the facts, Dr. K cannot of course make a proper diagnosis. I suspect that she has forgotten, or been told to ignore, the xray I had taken showing the mass. This really isn't fair to either Sundae or to Dr. K. now that Sundae is coming up with other issues.
Sundae
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LAWomans
- "Live Long and Prosper"
Dr. Kanfer has been informed about the mass, but we both decided it was in Sundae's best interest to treat his symptoms, including his enlarged heart. He had the teeth problems and bumble foot in March when she first saw him. Who knows when the scurvy started. I don't know how long it takes to develop. All I know is that he is so much better with the added vitamin C, which is the only thing we changed. He really can't eat enough greens to get it from them, although he does try.
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Mum
- I GAVE, dammit!
She must be thinking of another pig - he never had bumblefoot, or any other issue regarding his feet.He had the teeth problems and bumble foot in March
Teeth issues were the least of his problems, and were ruled out on his examination with Dr. K. in March. Prior to that visit he had seen Dr. Beeder, and neither of these issues were present in that visit either.
He was eating plenty of greens for the 4 months he was here (along with pellets and hay), so I can only assume that the teeth issues arose more recently. Appetite, or the ability to eat, was not one of his problems.
As I have told you several times, Dr. Beeder did not diagnose an enlarged heart. It was my impression from looking at the xrays that it was enlarged, but I have never put a pig on heart meds without having an xray confirmed by Dr. Ridgeway.
As I said before, it's only fair to both Sundae and Dr. Kanfer that you get a new xray so that a reasonable diagnosis and treatment plan can be made.
Treating his symptoms is clearly the right thing to do, however, I have the distinct impression that you have Dr. K. struggling for a diagnosis, rather than looking at the existing xray or informing her that a mass has been seen.
This whole issue leaves me totally confused. When you adopted Sundae you were well aware of his medical issue - and I gave you full access to the tests I had done at Dr. Beeder's office and to his health record for the period that he was here (at least 4 months prior to your adoption, as well as the previous year when he came into the rescue). It saddens me that these discussions have come to this point.
My only concern has ever been that Sundae receives the most humane care - which he deserves.
I, personally, am saddened that you seem to have another agenda regarding this whole issue. I can only hope that, in spite of this (whatever it may be), that Sundae continues to receive the best possible care.
As you know, I will happily take back any animal I have adopted out at any time.
Last edited by Mum on Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"it's only fair to both Sundae and Dr. Kanfer that you get a new xray so that a reasonable diagnosis and treatment plan can be made."
I'd have to heartily agree with this. Is money an issue? Not trying to be snotty, just wondering if that is why you've not already done the newer Xrays.
I'm getting confused at this point.
There is what appears to be a definite mass on the Xray that was posted before.
When I worked for a vet, and we knew a mass was involved, any deterioration such as loss of hind leg strength or mobility was always suspected to be related to that mass, either due to pain, mets from the mass, or organ system failure.
We ruled that out first, and attempted to treat the primary issue, rather than casting about for other issues. (Not that we didn't always do a complete physical exam, as well--we did.)
Yes, animals with tumors can and do develop concurrent issues. It's just you always have to keep the progress of that tumor first and foremost in evaluating everything else, and the animal's overall quality of life.
I'm not sure I ever saw your answer as to what Dr. Kanfer said upon viewing the Xray that Mum had done?
It seems that would be a good baseline, for a current Xray, and would help clarify things.
Please do keep us posted. I'm really attached to Sundae, feel like I know the little dude.
I'd have to heartily agree with this. Is money an issue? Not trying to be snotty, just wondering if that is why you've not already done the newer Xrays.
I'm getting confused at this point.
There is what appears to be a definite mass on the Xray that was posted before.
When I worked for a vet, and we knew a mass was involved, any deterioration such as loss of hind leg strength or mobility was always suspected to be related to that mass, either due to pain, mets from the mass, or organ system failure.
We ruled that out first, and attempted to treat the primary issue, rather than casting about for other issues. (Not that we didn't always do a complete physical exam, as well--we did.)
Yes, animals with tumors can and do develop concurrent issues. It's just you always have to keep the progress of that tumor first and foremost in evaluating everything else, and the animal's overall quality of life.
I'm not sure I ever saw your answer as to what Dr. Kanfer said upon viewing the Xray that Mum had done?
It seems that would be a good baseline, for a current Xray, and would help clarify things.
Please do keep us posted. I'm really attached to Sundae, feel like I know the little dude.
Growths/tumors can change VERY rapidly. Xrays sounds like a must at this point. An ultrasound by a specialized imaginary vet will also be helpful but expensive (because of the location of the tumor and the structures of concern in the area).
Piggie has a growth/collection of crystals that tripled in size and ossify in a matter of one week.
Piggie has a growth/collection of crystals that tripled in size and ossify in a matter of one week.
Oh darnit.. yes, I meant imagery.
Oh god... I had just sent out an email to half the class referring to our radiologist as an "imaginary specialist". AH!
Oh god... I had just sent out an email to half the class referring to our radiologist as an "imaginary specialist". AH!
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Pigginess
- You are my sunshine
I know that you are going to extraordinary lengths to save Sundae. However, given the fact that there was a previous diagnosis of a tumor and x-rays to support that I’m confused that this is not incorporated into the current treatment plan.
That tumor is likely the reason he is not gaining weight and also affecting all of the other current symptoms that you are addressing.
Personally I find it hard to believe that any reputable vet would choose to ignore the tumor and deal only with the current symptoms.
I recall you saying that you could get an ultrasound for a discounted price. I think the best thing for Sundae and to help Dr. Kanfer’s accurate diagnosis and treatment of him is to have one done on Sundae. It would be most helpful if Dr. Kanfer also had access to the previous x-rays that Mum gave you so that Dr. Kanfer could compare the results.
I hope you keep what is the highest and best good for Sundae as your foremost goal.
That tumor is likely the reason he is not gaining weight and also affecting all of the other current symptoms that you are addressing.
Personally I find it hard to believe that any reputable vet would choose to ignore the tumor and deal only with the current symptoms.
I recall you saying that you could get an ultrasound for a discounted price. I think the best thing for Sundae and to help Dr. Kanfer’s accurate diagnosis and treatment of him is to have one done on Sundae. It would be most helpful if Dr. Kanfer also had access to the previous x-rays that Mum gave you so that Dr. Kanfer could compare the results.
I hope you keep what is the highest and best good for Sundae as your foremost goal.
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LAWomans
- "Live Long and Prosper"
I would like to thank all of you who really care about Sundae's well being. I know all of your kind thoughts and prayers are helping.
In all fairness to Dr, Kanfer, we were reading Sundae's file not some other pig's. In March, on his first visit, it specifically shows her drawing of his teeth and the hooks and that he had bumblefoot which was included in another drawing. There are two paragraphs of notes including that he was supposed to have supportive care until he gained enough weight so he could get his teeth done, which would have included syringe feeding him. It was noted was underweight but not emaciated like he was in July.
I told Dr. Kanfer about the x-ray and tumor when I first saw her and we have discussed it at every visit. She was not able to palpate it and still can not. We have discussed it at length and the treatment course. There is absolutely nothing that can be done for a tumor since he can not undergo surgery. Since I can't afford an x-ray at this time, we decided to treat his symptoms. He has had blood work which came back normal.
Dr. Kanfer diagnosed him with scurvy, and since he has responded well to the extra vitamin C, it would seem this is a good diagnosis. Because his case is so severe, the damage has already been done to his body and this can not be repaired. However, he is not in pain, gets syringe fed 3 times a day and is now eating some hay on his own. Scurvy takes a long time to get to this stage so I would imagine the person who adopted him was not following the feeding guidelines she was given when he was adopted from Cavy Love.
I hope this puts all of you who were concerned that we were ignoring the tumor, at ease.
We are doing all we can for Sundae.
In all fairness to Dr, Kanfer, we were reading Sundae's file not some other pig's. In March, on his first visit, it specifically shows her drawing of his teeth and the hooks and that he had bumblefoot which was included in another drawing. There are two paragraphs of notes including that he was supposed to have supportive care until he gained enough weight so he could get his teeth done, which would have included syringe feeding him. It was noted was underweight but not emaciated like he was in July.
I told Dr. Kanfer about the x-ray and tumor when I first saw her and we have discussed it at every visit. She was not able to palpate it and still can not. We have discussed it at length and the treatment course. There is absolutely nothing that can be done for a tumor since he can not undergo surgery. Since I can't afford an x-ray at this time, we decided to treat his symptoms. He has had blood work which came back normal.
Dr. Kanfer diagnosed him with scurvy, and since he has responded well to the extra vitamin C, it would seem this is a good diagnosis. Because his case is so severe, the damage has already been done to his body and this can not be repaired. However, he is not in pain, gets syringe fed 3 times a day and is now eating some hay on his own. Scurvy takes a long time to get to this stage so I would imagine the person who adopted him was not following the feeding guidelines she was given when he was adopted from Cavy Love.
I hope this puts all of you who were concerned that we were ignoring the tumor, at ease.
We are doing all we can for Sundae.
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