*URGENT* Passing blood...squeaking

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Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:10 pm


I also wanted to add to the above: should I pursue Polycitra with my vet? She stated that she would look into it, but I'd like to get GL feedback on whether it might be useful in preventing more crystals from forming into stones in his other ureter.

I'm willing to try anything.

There is also a supplment on KV Vet that claims to have a "high success rate" in dissolving crystals "of all kinds." I started a thread on it quite some time ago, but couldn't find it when I did a search earlier today. Here is the product. I contacted KV Vet about it yesterday, and they in turn contacted the manufactuer to ask if it is considered safe to use in guinea pigs. They were told that it is.

?

User avatar
Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:12 pm


As far as I know there is nothing that will dissolve stones - which seems to be your biggest problem at the moment. Unfortunately, there are never guarantees with surgery.

I wish I could help you to feel optimistic, but stones are a total crapshoot as far as I know.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:27 pm


I guess my feeling is this: surgery to remove the stones in the left ureter is just not an option. Even if we could afford it (the only way would be if we could get the cost down to around $1,000, and I were to borrow against my retirement), it seems awfully risky. Nobody can really tell me what the success rate is for that type of surgery. And then there's always the chance of recurrence.

So I'm thinking -- we could remove the bladder stone if there's a possibility of it helping with the pain. Our vet felt confident that it could be done as successfully as Sebastian's. She just couldn't say for sure if it was the source of some or most of the discomfort.

The big thing, as I understand it, is trying to prevent more stones from forming in both of those ureters. That's why I was looking for something that might dissolve crystals -- the crystals lead to stones (right?).

If we could prevent the other ureter from getting clogged up, and manage the pain from the one that is, isn't there a chance he could still have a halfway normal life for a while yet? Even without one kidney functioning normally?

Or is this just wishful thinking?

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:25 am


It's also my understanding that these stones are not really going to dissolve. On rare occasions bladder stones are passed but I don't recall a good prognosis with stones in the ureters.

I am so sorry you are in this situation. We will all support whatever decision you make.

DaCourt's guinea pig Scooter had a string of stones in one ureter:

Image

More pics and xrays on this page:
https://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewt ... &start=100

User avatar
Becky

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:05 am


I wouldn't bother with the polycitra. It is not a quick fix by any means. All I can say about the ureter stones is from my own experience.

With Cookie, she had several stones in her bladder. She then started developing them in her kidneys which led to eventually blocking her ureters. Under those circumstances, we opted for no more surgries and just supportive care.

With Elvis, he had one stone in one ureter. No sludge or stones anywhere else. We knew the cause of that stone was supplementing with calcium, so our plan was to remove the kidney. We had no reason to think that he would form another stone if we adjusted his calcium supplement.

Personally, I wouldn't consider the surgery. I'd continue the subcues for sure but yes, you can tax the kidneys. I'd do it every other day until you can talk to your vet, but I don't think it would hurt if you did do 15cc's once a day for a week.

You won't find anything to dissolve the stones, I'm afraid. Also, the muscle relaxant (shilongten?-sp?) might help the bladder stone, but I have no idea if it would have any impact on the ureter stones.

I really don't want to discourage you, but the fact that there are multiple stones in one ureter and another in the second ureter really is not encouraging. I think it's Josephine who always says, "Hope for the best; expect the worst."

You might email her to see what she has to say.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:53 am


I emailed her last night.

I know that the stones themsevles can't be dissolved, but I'm just wondering if the cyrstals can be dissolved before they turn into stones. Vet said there was quite a few oxalate and I think magnesium(?) crystals in his urine.

I'm looking for some way to prevent the other ureter from getting blocked. Is there anything at all we can try?

None of this makes any sense. He was a seemingly normal pig a month ago...popcorning, playing. Now he has numerous stones, despite what I thought was the right diet.


This really is the pits.

User avatar
somechick

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:59 am


I'm so sorry about all this sef. I feel so ill for you.

It seems like getting the stones out of the ureter isn't an option due to cost and complexity. So could you remove the whole thing? Kidney, ureter an all? (I know you don't want any surgery.) I'm sorry if I'm totally talking out of my rear, I'm just trying to think of anything.

As far as keeping the other one unblocked - there has to be something out there to prevent that.

I wish I knew anything. I'm sorry I have nothing to offer.

User avatar
Maja

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:20 pm


sef1268, I'm sorry that you're going through this, I've been following your story.

I don't know if it's going to help any, but with humans, we use Spasmex, analgetics, iv fluids and warmth to help pass the stones when they get stuck.

...when my own pig had stone problems I was giving her more fluids (up to 50 cc a day) divided in 3-4 doses

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:07 pm


Unfortunately, uretral stones are a b*tch. You aren't going to get them to dissolve. Usually, removal of the kidney and ureter is the treatment at this point. That is a seriously invasive surgery and I would suggest it has a high incidence of complications and mortality in other animals, and I would assume more so in a guinea pig.

What kind of crystals are there? That will tell you if you need a urinary acidifier or not.

I would attack pain on two fronts for complete pain management. That means an NSAID (like meloxicam) with a narcotic or opiod (buprenorphine, tramadol, etc.). All those can easily be given orally or transbuccally in the case of the buprenorphine.

If you can manage the pain, he can do fine on one kidney for some time. It's the stones and crystals (and associated chronic infections) that cause diminished quality of life at some point. You need to gauge how that goes with your vet.

I would suggest that the 15 ccs of fluids are fine if he is drinking normally. If not, I would definitely suggest (if his heart is fine) that upping the amount may be helpful. I would definitely consult with your vet since I do not know why the overperfusion of the kidneys was a concern. She knows more of the story than we do here.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:27 pm


I have nothing useful at all to add except my best wishes to Zach and to you.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:56 pm


Josephine, the vet said there were oxalates in his urine and (I think) magnesium-?

Josephine, when you say he can manage with one kidney, does this mean if the other one fails he could, in theory, continue to manage with the other one. OR, do you mean if we remove the one kidney and ureter? What happens if we leave them in?

Is there any supplement, herb, medication, anything, that we can try to help reduce crystals or prevent them from forming more stones?

He is drinking on his own. You say that 15cc's might be enough if he is drinking...do you think daily is okay? What do you consider to be "too much" fluids?

Also, with the pain management. Zachary has such a sensitive gut. Is Tramadol or other opiates relatively well tolerated?

All of this is just making me feel so sick.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:11 pm


On a positive note, Zachary has been even perkier this evening. I think the antibiotics were making him feel even worse. He has been trotting around, nibbling hay, drinking water, and even eating a few pellets (I'm not offering many). In between those pain spasms, he seems more like his old self.

The bad thing, is that his poops are now small and extremely soft. I don't know if it's from the AB's or too many wet veggies (in an effort to hydrate) or both. I gave him another small dose of Bio-Sponge this evening -- .3cc's. Looks like I'll need to cut back veggies a little, at least until his gut gets back to normal.

What can he eat, then, if he probably shouldn't have too many pellets and can't eat too many veggies?

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