- Supporter in '08
We tried her on tapazole first and while it lowered her thyroid level, it wasn't enough to really improve her overall condition. We decided to go ahead with the tumour removal, and it worked out extremely well for us.
It might be an option for you to start a course of heart meds first, and see how well that stabilizes her. She may improve considerably, leaving the surgery option a less risky one. (hope that makes sense!) I believe there is a type of tumour that can be around/near the thyroid gland and cause hyperthyroid type symptoms, but not actually change the thyroid values. This might be something for you to investigate further as I'm not positive about it.
If memory serves, we did find kidney issues on Maggie's postmortem, but these were not the cause of her death. Maggie was also on Metacam longterm which may have affected her kidneys.
There are so many factors at play in these situations, it's so difficult to know what to do. My vet and I have agreed that when it reaches a point where the pet is declining when we are doing nothing, we're obligated to try something, even if there's a chance that the something we try could cause more/other issues.
Didn't sound like a good idea to mess with Inca's lump (aspiration nor surgery), but maybe that was mostly my resistance to anesthesia and willingness to presume it's a thyroid tumor without evidence.
I'm going to assume the cardiologist has not dealt with a lot of pigs and is basing a lot of the diagnostics on cat and dog experience. (Pigs don't tend to be a niche market with any specialists).
Our "hyperthyroid" pigs have to remain assumed hyperthyroid as the vet couldn't find the thyroid glands for necropsy. However, based on hyperthyroid cats, we assumed the revved up activity level would be a stress on the heart(confirmed by stethoscope - heart rate was too fast to count) and heart meds would be necessary to keep pig from collapsing. Heart meds helped level things out.
It makes no sense to not give heart meds to a "hyperthyroid" pig with the diagnostics you have. Tapazole and Fortekor can be given concurrently. What is your vet waiting for? Collapse?
With pigs you don't have the timeline for screwing around testing treatments that you have with larger animals. Sometimes you have to treat the symptoms as well as the cause and in the end, as long as the pig improves you're winning. Fortekor is an extremely safe heart med. There is no benefit to not treating a pig with a murmur or an arrythmia and slightly enlarged left ventricle for the heart issues indicated .
Again, what is your vet waiting for? Heart failure brought on by hyperthyroidism? Or is your vet gambling that the "hyperthyopridism" can be brought under control before the heart fails.
That's a hell of a gamble.
After reading stuff this morn (about cats), it's all clear to me. And I've notified my vet what I want -- to treat heart and thyroid, but perhaps not concurrently at first (help heart first). She's more on board with a tapazole plan (only), but I'll bet she'll prescribe Lotensin if I'm persistent.
Now I'll reread some heart threads to see how fast improvement might occur...or can someone give me s sense here and save me some time searching? Once Inca's heart is a bit better, we'll start tapazole. Hope she can hang in there for the ride ahead!
After the tapazole kicks in, hopefully Inca can start gaining some weight back (or at least stop losing). By my scale (just shows 25-gram intervals) she seemed around 620g this morn -- poor thing. And we will likely do some blood work in a few weeks (if I'm not too nervous about the anesthesia) to check Inca's kidney function; hyperthyroid masks kidney problems, yet when thyroid levels improve kidney disease is sometimes revealed.
Fingers crossed we're on a road to recovery for my little girl! She just turned 5-1/2 and is nearly half the weight of one of her sisters (who is same age).
My vet had discussed the whole case with hospital's "guru" on hyperthyroid (has treated thousands of hyperthyroid cats, on which piggy protocol is based) as well as a cardiologist and another doc (maybe head of critical care?). So I feel I've got a panel of experts helping us out and need to just trust them now.
mmeadow, Scooby's name has come up every so often. Sounds like she was improving well until her thyroid "storm" -- condolences again about her, but hopefully they will learn with each case, right? Until they are more confident about best treatment. Inca will further the cause, too.
- Supporter 2004-2017
As I posted earlier, she definitely improved--she became more active, had a much better attitude, and ate much more on her own. We continued to hand-feed her Critical Care, but not vast quantities. (Before the methimazole kicked in, she was getting a whopping 60 ccs/day, and even that wasn't enough to stabilize her weight. AND it took more than 3 hours a day.)
Again to repeat--if we could have a do-over, we might continue to increase her dose beyond that which got these results. John wonders whether the thyroid storm could have been prevented by additional suppression of her thyroid function.
Please do send along Scooby's tapazole dose, though; I'm trying to learn doses other members have given. In one post, you wrote .30 for Scooby, divided into two doses/day. And in the skinny/T4 thread, a few folks posted about 1.25 daily for tapazole. That's why I think Inca's concentration must be higher because her total daily dose will be only .14.
Inca already is active
Huh??? Hyperthyroid pigs are already active, frenetically active. You want to calm them down, not get them more active. All that activity requires extra fuel(excessive eating and drinking) but the calories are burnt off before they can add to weight. The major organs all work harder and faster. The poops are bigger as the food rushes thru the system faster. Everything is speeded up.
Hypothyroid animals are not active, sluggish. As I understand it Dogs can get hypothyroidism and cats hyperthyroidism. As no research has been done on pigs it's anyone's guess if they can be hyper and hypothyroid.
Weight loss and inactivity indicates something other than hyperthyroidism. In our experience these symptoms have usually been heart related.
I can't remember what diagnostics were done to conclude hyperthyroidism is the problem. Ultrasound?
My piggy, Inca, subject of this thread, is not sluggish yet also not frenetic. Her energy is a bit inconsistent, but not drastic. She has presumed hyperthyroid based on a lump in her neck, weight loss that couldn't be explained by other diagnostics, racing heart, and slightly enlarged left ventricle (seen with echo); T4 was okay, which is why I went down a "heart" path with the vet. But once we felt the lump, now we're pretty sure thyroid is causing all problems.
We'll check Inca's T4 and other blood levels again after she gains some weight (or stops losing) and her heart slows at least some. Those will be indications the tapazole is working. That's our plan.
They also did not have any lumps anywhere.
This sounds like an "assumed diagnostic". Because so much is at stake and heart disease is fairly easy to deal with, I think you need to confirm the hyperthyroid diagnostic. Has the lump been biopsied? Ultrasounded?
T4 was okay I believe that is the only indicator of hyperthyroidism.
My brain can't compute the hyperthyroid diagnostic with a pig that is not frenetically active. Honestly, hyperthyroid pigs act like they're on speed. They will jump out of their basket at the vet and run around the examining room. Very freaky to see since they regard their basket as a safe zone and usually won't leave it in un familiar surroundings. My vet was amazed at the change in pigs she knew well.
Maybe you vet should be trying heart meds first and see how they work and THEN try tapazole.
I also think Josephine should look at this thread.
We're going on weight loss (despite much supplemental feeding)plus the lump, plus rapid heart that is likely secondary to the hyperthyroid. We were thinking to retest her T4, but I don't want to anesthetize Inca for bloodwork while she's so underweight and has racing heart (and we couldn't collect from her leg). We can try heart meds or thyroid med, but not both (can be dangerous for blood pressure and kidneys, plus we wouldn't know which is working), and the way my vet explained it, makes sense to try tapazole for her thyroid first, which hopefully will slow her heart (and everything else) closer to norm.
I'd love if Josephine chimed in...or anyone else.
Extract the lump symptom and it describes heart issues. Bart is just over 2 years and has been on heart meds for over a year. We knew his meds needed adjusting when he lost 12 ounces rapidly from his norml 3 pound weight. Lasix did the trick. He regained all his weight back. He started losing again and we upped his Fortekor. Weight is coming back on.
In my experience, without the frenetic activity, it just doesn't sound like hyperthyroidism. We had T-4 counts that certainly indicated something was off. We used healthy pigs for T-4 controls. Without the T-4 counts, what else do you have to go on to diagnose hyperthyroidism?
Has the lump been biopsied? What makes your vet think it has something to do with the thyroid?