Antibiotic Intolerance
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
But you see I posted my personal belief. That doesn't mean I'm not going to continue suggesting probiotics (hey, people believe in prayer too, no?), it's just that I personally don't think it does that much good. I'm not changing information on the GL reference -- and there are at least two places probiotics are discussed.
I just don't have much confidence in them myself.
Diarrhea can also be caused by stress (in my opinion), vitamin C deficiency, giardia, etc. Vitamin C helps the scurvy. There are treatments for giardia that are much more effective than probiotics, though I'd recommend their use with active diarrhea.
I just looked through half the entries on the board where "diarrhea" showed up. None of them were caused by safe antibiotic use. Usually it was diarrhea that presented or the term came up in the discussion but was not present.
I just don't have much confidence in them myself.
Diarrhea can also be caused by stress (in my opinion), vitamin C deficiency, giardia, etc. Vitamin C helps the scurvy. There are treatments for giardia that are much more effective than probiotics, though I'd recommend their use with active diarrhea.
I just looked through half the entries on the board where "diarrhea" showed up. None of them were caused by safe antibiotic use. Usually it was diarrhea that presented or the term came up in the discussion but was not present.
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Josephine
- Little Jo Wheek
Shoot, I wish I had an article to pick out of my hat. I got the info from another exotics RVT who went to some CE. There are two schools of thought on this one certainly.
I'm sure it is too difficult to say for certain exactly what causes the diarrhea in pigs on antibiotics. There could be several causes, as Chary states. The recommended treatment for pigs on antibiotics which later have diarrhea is:
--Stop the antibiotic.
--Stop the diarrhea using a motility drug (such as kaopectate to slow the movement).
--Replace fluids (SQs or by mouth)
--Increase fiber (hay), decrease fresh feed for the time being, and possibly add poop soup or a probiotic. The diet awareness is important, but I wouldn't say the most urgent. The other things listed above are much more important.
Some vets even think that the probiotics may further upset the GIT. They're not sure yet. Which bacteria are needed from species to species may also be a concern. There isn't a single product specifically geared towards cavies, although most single-stomach herbivores are at least in some way similar to cavies. A lot also depends upon how active/"live" the probiotics are, which is often I think why yougurt (a danger in my opinon) is often suggested. Most of the literature agrees dairy or other animal products aren't processed well by herbivores.
Personally, I have never had a cavy die from what I considered to be antibiotic intolerance SAVE the ones that got Amoxicillin before I knew any better. That was a pretty profound diarrhea and decline. Classic. I have used tons of Baytril and while many have had problems with intolerance and cavies--I haven't. Luck or whatever. I have not routinely given probiotics except poop soup. I used acidophilus in various forms for years with a high mortality rate. I have no idea if it was lack of nursing care, lack of vigor, or what. The pigs on poop probiotics never fail to thrive and survive! I don't know if it's a coincidence, but many vets are now agreeing that not every probiotic is created equal, although I do know a few exotics vets that prescribe pre-packaged products regularly.
The consensus seems to be that probiotics can't hurt too much. They may not help, though. I don't try to dissuade many people if they think it works for them. I just think poop is much better and more effective.
I'm sure it is too difficult to say for certain exactly what causes the diarrhea in pigs on antibiotics. There could be several causes, as Chary states. The recommended treatment for pigs on antibiotics which later have diarrhea is:
--Stop the antibiotic.
--Stop the diarrhea using a motility drug (such as kaopectate to slow the movement).
--Replace fluids (SQs or by mouth)
--Increase fiber (hay), decrease fresh feed for the time being, and possibly add poop soup or a probiotic. The diet awareness is important, but I wouldn't say the most urgent. The other things listed above are much more important.
Some vets even think that the probiotics may further upset the GIT. They're not sure yet. Which bacteria are needed from species to species may also be a concern. There isn't a single product specifically geared towards cavies, although most single-stomach herbivores are at least in some way similar to cavies. A lot also depends upon how active/"live" the probiotics are, which is often I think why yougurt (a danger in my opinon) is often suggested. Most of the literature agrees dairy or other animal products aren't processed well by herbivores.
Personally, I have never had a cavy die from what I considered to be antibiotic intolerance SAVE the ones that got Amoxicillin before I knew any better. That was a pretty profound diarrhea and decline. Classic. I have used tons of Baytril and while many have had problems with intolerance and cavies--I haven't. Luck or whatever. I have not routinely given probiotics except poop soup. I used acidophilus in various forms for years with a high mortality rate. I have no idea if it was lack of nursing care, lack of vigor, or what. The pigs on poop probiotics never fail to thrive and survive! I don't know if it's a coincidence, but many vets are now agreeing that not every probiotic is created equal, although I do know a few exotics vets that prescribe pre-packaged products regularly.
The consensus seems to be that probiotics can't hurt too much. They may not help, though. I don't try to dissuade many people if they think it works for them. I just think poop is much better and more effective.
In this arena, about the most many of us can offer is anecdotal evidence since only a few here actually have the training and background to contribute more.
My experience...I've had a total of four pigs on antibiotics. I did not give probiotics to three of the four and none of them had any difficulties either with not eating or diarrhea.
The fourth, however, was intolerant of every single antibiotic given to her. It didn't seem to matter if or how probiotics were given. She had Benebac, cecal pellets, acidopholus(sp?). They were given well before the ABs, during the ABs (because I didn't know better) and after ABs. In the course of about three months, she was on five different ABs and stopped eating every time.
The biggest difference is that she was given one dose of amoxicillian(sp) by an idiot emergency vet. Who knows...it may have been enough to do permanent damage to her gut flora.
I guess I would have to say that maybe not enough is known about all of this. The only thing I know for certain is that the only "cure" for her intolerance was taking her off of any ABs. That's hardly scientific. Just stories.
My experience...I've had a total of four pigs on antibiotics. I did not give probiotics to three of the four and none of them had any difficulties either with not eating or diarrhea.
The fourth, however, was intolerant of every single antibiotic given to her. It didn't seem to matter if or how probiotics were given. She had Benebac, cecal pellets, acidopholus(sp?). They were given well before the ABs, during the ABs (because I didn't know better) and after ABs. In the course of about three months, she was on five different ABs and stopped eating every time.
The biggest difference is that she was given one dose of amoxicillian(sp) by an idiot emergency vet. Who knows...it may have been enough to do permanent damage to her gut flora.
I guess I would have to say that maybe not enough is known about all of this. The only thing I know for certain is that the only "cure" for her intolerance was taking her off of any ABs. That's hardly scientific. Just stories.
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
Personally, I have never had a cavy die from what I considered to be antibiotic intolerance SAVE the ones that got Amoxicillin before I knew any better....I have used tons of Baytril and while many have had problems with intolerance and cavies--I haven't....I have not routinely given probiotics except poop soup. I used acidophilus in various forms for years with a high mortality rate. I have no idea if it was lack of nursing care, lack of vigor, or what. The pigs on poop probiotics never fail to thrive and survive! I don't know if it's a coincidence...
Question: you said you never had a cavy die from what you consider antibiotic intolerance but said with acidophilus you had high mortality and with poop soup they thrived. Can you clarify?
Do you always give poop soup with every pig who gets antibiotics?
Question: you said you never had a cavy die from what you consider antibiotic intolerance but said with acidophilus you had high mortality and with poop soup they thrived. Can you clarify?
Do you always give poop soup with every pig who gets antibiotics?
I think we're talking about poop, Josephine. I don't use acidophilous powder or commercial probiotics.
When you say that you have not "routinely used probiotics except for poop soup" does that mean that you routinely use poop soup with antibiotics?
I'd also like to see some evidence that probiotics "may not help," since everything I'm reading points to the fact that they significantly decrease gastrointestinal upset following antibiotics.
Lynx, you can keep harping on the diarrhea issue but like I said, that isn't my main point. And I never, ever said that probiotics should be used to treat diarrhea. I said that they should be used to prevent antibiotic intolerance which could include diarrhea. Giardia--wheverever that came from--I treat with Flagyl.
In the case of Humphrey's diarrhea, I reccomended:
1) Stop the antibiotic
2) Give fluids
3) Give probiotic (poop soup)
4) Administer kaopectate
5) Stop feeding veggies
6) See a vet
Which, I do believe, was exactly what Josephine recommended for diarrhea.
So I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. Can we get back to the subject please?
When you say that you have not "routinely used probiotics except for poop soup" does that mean that you routinely use poop soup with antibiotics?
I'd also like to see some evidence that probiotics "may not help," since everything I'm reading points to the fact that they significantly decrease gastrointestinal upset following antibiotics.
Lynx, you can keep harping on the diarrhea issue but like I said, that isn't my main point. And I never, ever said that probiotics should be used to treat diarrhea. I said that they should be used to prevent antibiotic intolerance which could include diarrhea. Giardia--wheverever that came from--I treat with Flagyl.
In the case of Humphrey's diarrhea, I reccomended:
1) Stop the antibiotic
2) Give fluids
3) Give probiotic (poop soup)
4) Administer kaopectate
5) Stop feeding veggies
6) See a vet
Which, I do believe, was exactly what Josephine recommended for diarrhea.
So I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. Can we get back to the subject please?
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Josephine
- Little Jo Wheek
Poop routinely, no. Not on all pigs.
Let me clarify here: I use poop soup on all inappetant pigs, antibiotics or not. Pigs that are on antibiotics and eating prior to antibiotics (and they have always continued to eat for me) get no probiotics (poop soup).
I'm a bit confused myself. I thought the issue was over probiotics, period, not the type of probiotic. The type of probiotic is a definite issue for me. I have no evidence that it (the poop) works other than personal anectdotes. I guess I just got to the point where I knew it might be of benefit in an animal that is otherwise obviously trying to die since it wasn't eating. Can't hurt, right? Maybe it's all the force-feeding. The Odwalla juice, the Critical Care, the SQ fluids, the B and C vits, or the steroids (if they are REALLY dying). I have no real clue since I use them all!
Let me clarify here: I use poop soup on all inappetant pigs, antibiotics or not. Pigs that are on antibiotics and eating prior to antibiotics (and they have always continued to eat for me) get no probiotics (poop soup).
I'm a bit confused myself. I thought the issue was over probiotics, period, not the type of probiotic. The type of probiotic is a definite issue for me. I have no evidence that it (the poop) works other than personal anectdotes. I guess I just got to the point where I knew it might be of benefit in an animal that is otherwise obviously trying to die since it wasn't eating. Can't hurt, right? Maybe it's all the force-feeding. The Odwalla juice, the Critical Care, the SQ fluids, the B and C vits, or the steroids (if they are REALLY dying). I have no real clue since I use them all!
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
Chary, no, no, no. You are very clear in your first post that diarrhea is a significant risk.
I know you didn't say anything about treating diarrhea with antibiotics. I said that. I said that THAT is when I would use them, and I said that I didn't expect safe use of antibiotics to result in diarrhea. You made several statements in the first post to indicate this was a symptom of antibiotic intolerance, i.e. you expect that it may happen if a pig is intolerant.
It was your mention of diarrhea that initiated my comments. If you didn't mean to include it as a symptoms of antibiotic intolerance or as a result of antibiotic intolerance, you shouldn't have emphasized it in your first post.
You talk about a pig that got diarrhea in the second paragraph. The implication of which is that antibiotic intolerance results in diarrhea. The most deadly thing is not eating.It is not enough to simply wait and see if signs of intolerance occur. By the time anorexia and diarrhea are apparent, you already have a pig who is very sick from the antibiotic. And it is very hard to correct.
I know you didn't say anything about treating diarrhea with antibiotics. I said that. I said that THAT is when I would use them, and I said that I didn't expect safe use of antibiotics to result in diarrhea. You made several statements in the first post to indicate this was a symptom of antibiotic intolerance, i.e. you expect that it may happen if a pig is intolerant.
It was your mention of diarrhea that initiated my comments. If you didn't mean to include it as a symptoms of antibiotic intolerance or as a result of antibiotic intolerance, you shouldn't have emphasized it in your first post.
(I think) we were just talking about the use of poop soup. I don't use the others for various reasons.
I give poop soup whever a pig is on antibiotics, even if it is for a war wound. But I double, even triple the poop soup if the pig is having problems with the G.I. tract, isn't eating, or is very ill.
Humphrey had a URI. He had a poor immune system and frequently lost his appetite when he was sick. A lot of the pigs that come on here are in the same condition, or worse. They are pretty sick and their symptoms are evident (we all know what that means).
IMO, to tell those people that they don't need a probiotic for their pig while on antibiotic when the pig is already weakened by illness is dangerous. That is the essence of my objections to Lynx's opionions about probiotics.
And on very sick pigs, it probably is to a great degree a combination of hand feeding, supplements, hydration, medication, and probiotics. But I would no sooner omit the probiotics than I would omit any of the others.
I give poop soup whever a pig is on antibiotics, even if it is for a war wound. But I double, even triple the poop soup if the pig is having problems with the G.I. tract, isn't eating, or is very ill.
Humphrey had a URI. He had a poor immune system and frequently lost his appetite when he was sick. A lot of the pigs that come on here are in the same condition, or worse. They are pretty sick and their symptoms are evident (we all know what that means).
IMO, to tell those people that they don't need a probiotic for their pig while on antibiotic when the pig is already weakened by illness is dangerous. That is the essence of my objections to Lynx's opionions about probiotics.
And on very sick pigs, it probably is to a great degree a combination of hand feeding, supplements, hydration, medication, and probiotics. But I would no sooner omit the probiotics than I would omit any of the others.
Just saw your post Lynx.
I think diarrhea is just as dangerous as not eating (I'll find some clinical evidence to back that up if you like). However, I agree that anorexia is a more common side effect of antibiotic intolerance.
I think I also made it clear that diarrhea can be an end product of antibiotic intolerance. And I did give evidence to that effect (I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over here).
But If you want to go through and erase every instance of "diarrhea" in all my posts, I don't care (although you'd still be ignoring medical evidence), but I DO care if you tell people with sick pigs on antibiotics that they don't need a probiotic. That's just dangerous.
And before it somehow winds up looking that way, let me make it clear that I NEVER, EVER recommend or use yogurt as a probiotic.
I think diarrhea is just as dangerous as not eating (I'll find some clinical evidence to back that up if you like). However, I agree that anorexia is a more common side effect of antibiotic intolerance.
I think I also made it clear that diarrhea can be an end product of antibiotic intolerance. And I did give evidence to that effect (I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over here).
But If you want to go through and erase every instance of "diarrhea" in all my posts, I don't care (although you'd still be ignoring medical evidence), but I DO care if you tell people with sick pigs on antibiotics that they don't need a probiotic. That's just dangerous.
And before it somehow winds up looking that way, let me make it clear that I NEVER, EVER recommend or use yogurt as a probiotic.
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Lynx
- Celebrate!!!
I think anorexia is the primary effect of antibiotic intolerance. I don't think diarrhea fits in anywhere. So if you write something up, judging from your most recent comments, you won't bring it up.
And you have completely missed the point that I was only giving you my personal beliefs. I will continue to recommend probiotics (you will find them mentioned in many posts), it's just that I don't use them myself and don't feel they do much. And if you read Josephine's most recent post, you would see that she does not routinely use them either.
And you have completely missed the point that I was only giving you my personal beliefs. I will continue to recommend probiotics (you will find them mentioned in many posts), it's just that I don't use them myself and don't feel they do much. And if you read Josephine's most recent post, you would see that she does not routinely use them either.
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