45g baby--how much CC/pedialyte to feed?

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:23 am


One of our volunteers (PoohBear on here) is trying to save a runt that the mom won't feed. He is a couple days old and now weighs 10g less than when he was born. I haven't seen him but she says he looks "not fully cooked."

At any rate, I've been over all the handfeeding threads for orphans and just can't find an actual amount that he should be fed. I did look at the handfeeding link, and am now hopelessly confused by the gram/oz conversion. It's late at night.

I advised her to feed 2-3ml of CC and 2-3ml of pedialyte every 3-4 hours. It's just a guess. Anyone differ/agree?

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Cindi

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:55 am


I can't be much help on the dosage. I know I fed baby Gerbils about .5 cc of formula every 2 to 3 hours. But I wondered if this might help put some weight on the Piggie baby. When I mixed up formula for baby Gerbils, I added a small strip of Nutrical (which mixed in nicely when warmed slightly) and it really gave them a boost with their weight gain.
Cindi

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:12 am


That sounds reasonable to me to use as a goal. If the baby is willing to eat more, that would be fine too.

Evangeline

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:48 am


Cindi-
Formula, as in milk substitute, is not a good idea. They are designed for puips and kittens and the protein/fat/etc ratio is not the same as for pigs. NutiCal (if I'm thinking of the right stuff) is designed for birds and does not qualify as a balanced diet for pigs. Critical Care is the best and that's what this girl is using, if you look at the title. It's designed especially for herbivores. Pedialyte is for added electrolytes.

Chary-
I have no idea what to tell you, as I've never had to handfeed such a small pig. However, your suggestion makes sense to me and I'd go with that, too.
Keep us posted, ok?

Evangeline

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:52 am


I forgot. Kara and Pigpal have both handfed newborns from the Hollister bunch. Maybe they remember how much they fed? Email them.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:12 am


I would shoot for 3 cc's each time. ANd try to go every 3 hours.
Do you know why Mom is not feeding? Is she feeding other siblings? If Mom is healthy and feeding others, this might be short term until Mom thinks the baby will live.
I've never been able to save a baby that a healthy Mom would not feed, so good luck. The babies I've saved have all been healthy but lost the Mom, or Mom was too sick to nurse any of them.
Make sure and remind her about wiping with a warm cloth to get the baby to urinate and defecate.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:02 pm


Here's the thread with all the hand feeding info on it. It covers just about every thing. By the way, Bea is one year old tomorrow!


http://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1508&highlight=

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:06 pm


Well, the baby is still with us. He was able to stand up today and is wheeking. He is sucking pedialyte from a syringe.

Hard to say why the mom isn't feeding. She belongs to a woman that the volunteer knows. This sow was backbred and is likely very stressed out. She keeps kicking the baby away, and after about 24 hours, Sonny decided to try to save him.

I'll post any updates.

Texasrustlers

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:30 pm


Charybdis
We are feeding a couple of orphans currently - mum died in animal control when they were around 6 days, at that point 1 weighed 45g and the other 70g. We are using a high fat formula from www.foxvalleynutrition.com , it is formulated for rabbits. The company can overnight it.
We also buy the catac nipples (small) from there + the probiotic which we add 1/4 teaspoon to the formula.
I am not at home so can not get to the recommended serving, anyone with Disease of the Domestic Guinea Pig should have access to that under 'orphans'

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:41 pm


Josephine is very much against this type of formulae, esp high fat dairy based. She has claimed that until a forumla comes along that actually approximates a guinea pig's milk, you are much better off feeding critical care and other types of solid food.

Guinea pig pups are quite mature compared to rabbits. They can make it where rabbits may not, and adjust well to a more complex diet similar to a grown cavy's.

I believe everything Josephine says. Almost.

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:39 pm


Sonny is using a combination of Kara's formula and my own: Critical Care, pedialyte, butternut squash baby food, baby oatmeal, extra C, and a poop. I encouraged her to add some calcium lactate but I don't think she has found it yet. I also told her it would be ok to add a little B complex to stimulate apetite.

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Cindi

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:34 pm


Evangaline, I know that piggies are lactose intolerant. What I meant was that the Nutrical could probably be mixed in with the Critical Care. Nutrical is used as an appetite stimulant, has lots of calories for weight gain/management during the recovery of most animals, including rabbits, guinea pigs, small rodents, etc. It also contains vitamins and electrolytes. It is now sold over the counter. It pulled my elderly rabbit thru her surgery and has also helped stimulate the appetite of many other rabbits that I know of. I've never heard of birds using it, but they might. Just thought it might help to put some weight on this little piggie and stimulate his appettite.
Cindi

Evangeline

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:08 pm


Critical care is already balanced for herbivores and it already has an appetite stimulants, vitamins and minerals. Nutrical is loaded with fat and it simply not the best option.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:12 pm


I don't know if your Nutrical is the same as what is available locally, but this is bad product for guinea pigs. It is loaded with fat soluble vitamins and would be much to easy to cause problems from an overdose of these vitamins than it would be using a product like Critical Care -- which as E describes, already is well balanced.

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Cindi

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:21 pm


Hmmm, I know that many use CC for rabbits too. But I wonder why the Nutrical helps rabbits but would hurt Piggies, since they are both herbivores? I just didn't think they'd be much different. Sorry, was just trying to help.
Cindi

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:27 pm


Wish her luck from me. Bea is proof that it can be done. However, she was genetically OK. I have nursed 3 other pups who didn't make it.

Bea lost weight initially too, but when she started to gain it was pretty steady especially after 100 grams.

None of the pigs I hand fed would take the CC. Stinkers! They did LOVE the baby oatmeal and the squash with a splash of the "milk" mixture or some carrot juice.

Also, I gave Bea as much as she would take. After her feedings, her little tummy felt like a super ball. She would also ATTACK the syring and become very unhappy when I need to refill. She had spunk. Still does!

Good luck. I am pulling for all of you.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:43 pm


Cindi, I'll take a pic of the product I have. You can tell me if it is what you are thinking of. But still, fat really is not good.

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:19 pm


To Chary's original question: When we saved Mister E (who was born with his eyes closed, horribly underweight, and didn't seem to know HOW to nurse).. We just tried to feed him as much as possible. He fought the handfeeding at first, but by the second or third day I think I remember him taking 5 cc's at a sitting. We fed him that pellet mash recipe you know about, but we went a little heavier on the single grain Baby Rice meal. And I used a drop of Karo Syrup on my finger and let him lick it off each time. After 8-9 days or so, he opened his eyes, started expressing interest in the food his siblings were eating, and finally started nursing on his own when his mama saw that he wasn't going to die and let him.

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:24 pm


Thanks, Para. That's a little more encouraging.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:54 am


DO NOT USE THIS PRODUCT!
Here are some pics of the Nutrical -- Nutri-cal -- Nutri Cal (put these in for search purposes) that I have.

As I said before, it is loaded with fat soluble vitamins and it would be much too easy to cause problems from an overdose of these vitamins than it would be using a product like Critical Care. It is also loaded with fat (34.5%). Read over the hand feeding information, if you need it, here:
www.guinealynx.info/emergencymedicalguide.html#handfeeding

Image

Pic of Front of box -- Also says for veterinary use only.
Pic of Complete ingredients list
Pic of Complete list of vitamins -- gives amount of vitamins/minerals and fat per 6 grams.

The ingredients from this list:
Guaranteed analysis per teaspoon (6 grams)
  • Crude Protein -- 0.7%
  • Crude Fat -- 34.5%
  • Crude fiber -- 3.8%
  • Moisture -- 14%
  • Calcium -- 0.16-0.20 mg
  • Phosphorus -- 0.03 mg
  • Iron 0.53mg
  • Iodine -- 0.53%
  • Magnesium -- 0.42 mg
  • Manganese -- 1 mg
  • Potassium -- 0.16mg
  • Vitamin A -- 1045 IU
  • Vitamin D3 -- 60 IU
  • Vitamin E -- 6 IU
  • Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) -- 1.8 mg
  • Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) -- 0.2 mg
  • Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine -- ) 0.8 mg
  • Vitamin B12 -- 2 mcg
  • Folic Acid -- 0.2 mg
  • Nicotinamide -- 2 mg
  • d-Pantothenic Acid -- 1 mg
My notes are 14.8cc => one Tablespoon
7.4 cc/ 1 1/2 teaspoon

Ingredients:
Corn Syrup, Soybean Oil, Malt Syrup, Cod Liver Oil, Cane Molasses, Methylcellulose, Water, Gelatin ByProducts, dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (Vit. E), Sodiium Benzoate (Preservative), Manganese Sulfate, Iron Peptonate, Thiamine HCl, Nicotinamide, Calcium Pantotheante (Source of Calcium and Pantothenic Acid), Magnesium Sulfate, Pyridoxine HCl, Vitamin A Palmitate, Potassium Iodide (Source of Iodine and Potassium), Riboflavin 5' Phosphate Sodium (Source of Vit. B2 and Phosphorus), Vitamin A Palmitate & D3 Concentrate, Folic Acid and Cyanocobalamin (Vit. B12).
USES: To provbide supplemental caloric and nutritional intake in dogs and cats. Provides an added source of energy for hunting and working dogs. When the animal's caloric or nutritional intake is to be supplemented, give 1 1/2 teaspoons per 10 pounds of body weight daily. When animal is not consuming full feed ration, give 3 teaspoons (1 tablespoon) per 10 pounds of body weight daily. Calorie content 4420 kcal/kg (26.5 kcal/6g).
-----------------------
This would indicate a dose of between 1/2 teaspoon and 1 teaspoon per kilo pig. A quick look at google and vitamin A IU and "nutrient requirements" turns up some guidelines for dogs/cats/swine/horses/rabbits significantly lower than the 1045 IU provided by a standard dose of this product.

As I said, they would already be receiving many of these vitamins and minerals from a hand fed diet so this would be over and above what was needed, perhaps overdosing the animal. The Critical Care should have everything you need. Harkness and Wagner include a case study on scurvy that was treated with a multivitamin instead of plain C. The guinea pig did not get better and had new problems resulting from an overdose of fat soluble vitamins like A and D which build up in the body.
Last edited by Lynx on Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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