severe mites--need Dex dose quick

Post Reply
Evangeline

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:32 pm


I think it's wise to hold back information of this kind until there is scientific data avalable to back it up. Remember idiots are also reading this board and what they'll remember is "oral Ivermectin is not effective". I guess I am not comfortable with KM's post, either, because I know morons will just run with it.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:15 pm


I doubt the studies had anything at all to do with guinea pigs. Extrapolating another species may be a big mistake. All my data shows oral and topical dosing being safe and effective. It may take a few extra treatments in the worst case but eventually if they are mange mites, they go down. And there is absolutely no question ivermectin is one of the most effective drug treatments, if not THE most effective drug treatment.

I will continue to recommend it and use it myself.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:25 pm


Actually, Lynx, if I understood my vet correctly, it was ONLY about guinea pigs. But I have a call in to her and will know soon enough.

I don't believe ANYWHERE I said that ivermectin was ineffective. I said some pigs are shown to be resistant to ORAL ivermectin.

Man, I always knew how badly things get twisted around on a forum.

Comfortable or not with this info, if it is legitimate, we should just keep our mouths shut?

I'm not understanding this AT ALL.

*Still waiting for the callback from my vet*. You'd think she was busy or something. Sheesh.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:56 pm


Well, the truth is it works orally. I haven't had personal experience with it not working. If there is a problem, you can always do more treatments. Your advice can easily be twisted into an admonishment not to use oral ivermectin. It is used orally all the time on many species of animal.

This is like people putting out scares for feeding different foods. If you use moderation and general guidelines (so long as there is not a specific medical problem with your pig that would require a different diet), many foods are just fine.

Charybdis

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:08 pm


KM, I'm sorry if you feel like you are being attacked.

I think the problem lies in the fact that your vet says that perhaps ORAL dosing is not effective in some cases, and therefore your conclusion was that

before you shoot the vet that said ivermectin injections are the only way to be sure you've gotten the mites, for some pigs, he might be right, according to this new info from my vet

This conclusion doesn't even take into account topical dosing, so I don't think you would have gotten such a hot response if you had not said that injections could perhaps be the "only way."

I'm really interested in seeing the evidence when you get it. I'd like to know what the dosage rates were in that study and how many doses were given, etc.

Paisley

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:17 pm


Actually, the link I provided did have a reference to guinea pigs and blood plasma levels after a subq injection of ivermectin. Please see page 4 of the link.

Paisley

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:20 pm


If someone can get their hands on this journal article, it may have some interesting information:

McKellar QA, Midgley DM, Galbraith EA, Scott EW, Bradley A. Clinical and pharmacological properties of ivermectin in rabbits and guinea pigs. Vet Rec 1992; 130: 71-3.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:27 pm


Going to the link locks up IE for me. I think I read something about injections getting into the blood most quickly but topical administration working for the longest time.

One should keep in mind ivermectin is also used for intestinal parasites. It may also be that different routes are better to treat different bugs. But persistence will still win out (i.e. repeat treatments).

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:48 pm


It's ok, Chary, I haven't been attacked in several months so Im due.

Also, old people (Lynx) hate change, so I expected her to feel personally offended. She is, after all, the ivermectin queen!

Lynx, I have personal experience with oral ivermectin being ineffective in one of my daughter's pigs, Bosco. That is the ONLY reason I even posted. As I wrote earlier, (although it is quite apparent that people are not really reading) I had this info from the vet months ago. I did not post until I could try it on Bosco.


>>Well, the truth is it works orally <<.
Not on some pigs, Lynx, and unless you want to openly call me a liar, please read what I have been trying to say.

Bosco is my daughter's himi. She is married and on her own and doesn't live here.

Bosco had the typical mite V in the middle of his back. Also extremely sensitive to any touching, and almost went into seizures if you rubbed the fur on his back the wrong way. Mites, right? OK.

She dosed him orally, 5 weeks in a row. No change. OK, so I figured maybe it wasn't mites, and we treated him for lice and fungus, even though I could not see anything. I'm figuring, if the ivermectin didn't work, it must be something else.

After another 3 weeks, there was still no hair growth, he was just as sensitive, and he was starting to drop weight.

Thinking that perhaps my daughter did the ivermectin wrong, or missed a dose, or some other form of human error, I started Bosco back on ivermectin. I mixed the oral dosages. I dosed him myself every 7 days. For 5 treatments.

OK, now we are REALLY stumped, because he is the same. No improvement.

When Pebbles went to the vet, before her spay, Bosco was at my house because my kids were on vacation. All her pigs were here.

I told the vet I wanted an appt for Bosco, and explained the above to her. It was THEN that she told me that she had just read a new article that said that SOME pigs might be resistant to ORAL ivermectin, and that injections were recommended and proving very reliable in irradicating mites in these resistant pigs. I immediately asked about topical dosing, and she said she had no data on that, the article was about oral and injections ONLY. She named the vet and the article, but I was outside in the yard and did not write it down. And no, she still hasn't called.

OK, so I start Bosco on a TOPICAL series of ivermectin. I went and purchased the injectable kind to use topically. (As a side note, there was a female sow at 3lilpiggies that was having the same thing. Hairloss in one spot on her back, and oral ivermectin did not solve it. I told this topical story to her, and she treated the pig and her hair is all growing back.)

I dosed Bosco every 7 days for 5 treatments. He is MUCH less sensitive. He doesn't mind if you rub his fur the wrong way anymore. His hair is growing back, I think. He STILL has the telltale V on his back, so I am not completely sure the topical doses worked! It could be that he has developed a "habit" of biting off his hair. It could be that he actually damaged the hair follicles or something (no idea). Or it COULD be that he is highly resistant to ivermectin, and may need injections. I honestly don't know. I suppose time will tell, and if he again becomes sensitive, or loses more hair, I'll keep you all posted.

Those personal experiences with Bosco and Priscilla were what made me finally post that, PERHAPS, ORAL ivermectin may not be effective for SOME pigs.

I think it is ludicrous and asinine to say that I don't believe ivermectin is effective. I have never said, nor do I believe that. That is the only safe thing I know of to get rid of mites.

I'm sorry if some of you thought I posted irresponsibly. I felt, having gone through what I did with Bosco and Priscilla, I would tell you what my vet had told me.

>>before you shoot the vet that said ivermectin injections are the only way to be sure you've gotten the mites, for some pigs, he might be right, according to this new info from my vet <<

Chary, I said this because, frankly, Bosco still does not have hair in the V!! Period. And I don't know why. I HATE shots, I HATE the expense, but just to find out for sure, I may well go ahead and do ivermectin injections on him. I feel sorry for the pig if he has mites! It hurts. It's not right to let him suffer if he is the 1 in 1000 that topical and oral ivermectin will not help.

I'm not sure what else to do. I'm also not sure what to do with info I get, if it's new, because obviously I screwed this one up. I tried really hard not to scream and shout, I used words like "possibly, "maybe", "perhaps". Sheesh.

Give me options, people. How should I have reported this? AND WHERE IS THAT DAMN VET!!!!!!???

Paisley

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:40 pm


I'm sorry the link doesn't work for you, Lynx. Did you try the html link, too? I was having trouble myself with the pdf link so that is why I also included the html link.

I found many points of interest. I really don't want to quote any of them here, though, for fear of misinterpretation. It's better to read the whole text.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:58 pm


never mind. My post vanished, but now it's back.

Paisley

Post   » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:06 pm


I couldn't see your last post (the one before mine) until I posted, kleenmama. The board has been acting up for me all day.

Post Reply