I'm worried about Rosie.

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:40 pm


Rosie got a subcue, some Lactulose, some Simethicone, and some attention. He is now purring and rumbling around his cage. Damnit, this pig is gonna kill me.

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minismama

Post   » Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:03 pm


And once Rosie has fully recovered, he is going to fully expect to continue receiving the increased level of attention that he did when he was sick.

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:14 pm


Well, about three hours after the Lactulose and the Simethicone, his Bloat (saddlebag-feeling things of gas on the sides of his stomach) has disappeared. We fed him again and put his pellets and hay back in his cage. He was most pleased. We also gave him more Simethicone - The infant dose is listed as .3 mls, so we gave him .150 mls first and I just gave him another .2 mls (it's been a few hours and I don't want him gassy after eating 25 cc's of CC just now).

As I type this he is in his cage, purring like a little motor, as he struggles valiantly with a very large blade of hay.

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:26 am


Update - Rosie seems to be doing wonderfully. He is eating, drinking, and pooping large unformed globs of firmer poop.

I am really surprised. I thought Bloat was a condition, like something that took a long time to resolve. Rosie's gas cleared up in a matter of hours. Was that not Bloat, then?

I was thinking about it, and came up with this: He's been fed on Critical Care/Pellet Mash for days on end, and yesterday actually ate 1/3 cup (A HUGE amount) of Proform Pellets. I am wondering if the sudden influx of "solid" food caused him to blow up like a balloon. Is that right? Should I continue to give him the Simethicone, even if I don't see any visible Bloat signs? How about the Lactulose?

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:47 am


One would think the simethicone can't hurt. I don't know enough about the lactulose to make a guess. A radical diet change can certainly affect how things are moving through. Not sure how bloat and gas would be differentiated re: causes.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:42 am


I'm so sorry, Para, I was incredibly busy yesterday and today doesn't look any better. You can call me anytime today after 3PM but not between 9-10 pacific time. (West Wing, sorry) I will have my cell phone with me between 9am and 2pm. I think you ahve that number, if not, email me or call before 9 as Im leaving then

I think after not eating, then eating alot, pigs frequently get bloat. I think that is one concern about a pig not eating for a bit, is once they start back in that is common. I've never dealt with it, so I would have been no help anyway.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:42 am


double post.

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gracielee
Me, too!

Post   » Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:10 pm


I know with humans, you can use simethecone like water-- it's a prn med in the nursery for babies with gas. prn= as often as needed.

We keep some on hand in our "pig formulary", just in case.

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:46 pm


We just got back from the vet. Rosie did great!

His molars had overgrown, entrapping his tongue. He's apparently had the condition for quite a while. His tongue was permanently stuck out and you can see the indentation of the teeth.

Here are Rosie's teeth during the procedure:

Before:
Image

Almost done:
Image

If these links don't work you can view the pictures at
http://imageevent.com/paravati/rosiesteeth103003

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:48 pm


When we got home Rosie ate 18 cc's of Critical Care mix, drank from his water bottle, and went to lay down on a Thermacare pad in his Pigloo. I swear he's grateful. I think I can see it in his eyes.

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truffie
I gave AGAIN, dammit!

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:05 pm


Poor Rosie! Those pictures are heartbreaking. I bet he feels 100% better after getting that taken care of. Does anyone know what causes that? Hope he has a speedy recovery.

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snowflakey
E's Moriarity

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:16 pm


Wow. Those are really graphic photos, great quality, really scary. I am so glad to hear Rosie is finally feeling better.

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:21 pm


I wanted to post those pics hopefully to help someone else if they ever have this problem. I had never seen this before and was really grateful that my vet let me sit in on the surgery. I am sorry if the pictures scare anybody!

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PauloF

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:31 pm


I can't say that I'm scared because of the pictures, but I'm scared to think that this could happen to one of my pigs.

Para, I believe that the first pictures displays the elongated molars on both jaws trapping the tongue, right?

And in the second picture the left jaw molars have already been filed, and there is a kind of a sling pulling the lower incisors as well as a swab holding the tongue down. So this is about half of the procedure on the bottom molars, correct?

I believe the same filing was performed in the upper molars. How long did it take to complete all the procedure?

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:38 pm


The first picture does show the original teeth, with the lower molars trapping the tongue. If you look carefully at the top of Rosie's mouth you can see his upper left molars (shown on the right) hanging down a bit. They are fine, and didn't get filed or anything.

The second picture shows Rosie's left molars (shown on the right) that were clipped and filed. The right molars (shown on the left) were in-progress. The Dr. used a gauze sling and a small pad to wrap around the bottom incisors to help hold his mouth open and give her some stability for filing. His tongue was sticking out because he's used to it hanging out like that and because he was asleep, so they put a pad there so as not to injure it.

Since the top molars were fine the procedure didn't take that long. I think from the time they asked me to come in (once he was already asleep) to the time they wrapped him in a towel and let me hold him for a minute took about 15 minutes or so.

He woke up 15 minutes later just fine. He's a little sleepy but otherwise ok. He ate well about 20 minutes after the procedure.

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smiley
Just Do It

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:40 pm


How can we prevent this from happening? Chewing hay obviously isn't enough for some pigs. Are some pigs just predisposed to this condition?

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Paravati
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:43 pm


I really don't know. I didn't even know it was happening to MY pig until he quit eating and almost died - All in about 12 hours.

I think some people think it's a genetic thing, a predisposition, if you will. I have read the Malocclusion page here where it is stated that jaw muscle strength might be to blame. I really don't know.

Pinta would probably be a good person to ask. Hopefully she'll come along and offer her advice. I'm going to get a Chin-Sling for Rosie, and we are hoping it will help. My vet really seems to think so, although she did say that it was probable we would have to come back and get his teeth done again.

She showed me his "bite" - With his mouth closed but his lips drawn back you can see that the teeth almost meet. She said that his muscles are probably very slack since his mouth has been hanging open all this time and that the Chin-Sling sounds like it will really help him. I am hoping. It was nerve-wracking seeing my Rosie on the table, looking dead except for his slow deep breathing. I hate that limp look!

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SandraVE

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:06 pm


Para, I hope Rosie continues to improve. THanks for sharing those startling photos. I've never seen inside the mouth so far back before.

Lynx, could you add these photos to the Maloclusion page? I think people need to know and see what can happen and why they need to take their pigs to a qualified Cavy vet or Dentist.

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lisam

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:17 pm


Very nice photos, Para.

pinta

Post   » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:23 pm


I stumbled onto the jaw muscle problem with Willie. He was losing weight, got his teeth filed and still kept losing weight. I think he had 3 or 4 filings and I could tell he was going to starve to death anyway. I put him up on the arm of a chair and stared at his mouth soon after a filing and saw his mouth was ajar. Took him back to Dr. Legendre and complained bitterly his teeth were still propping open his mouth. Dr. Legendre insisted his bite was perfect and the molars were fine. A light bulb went on over our heads: "It's not the teeth - it's the jaw". The rest of Willie's story is at http://guinealynx.info/chinsling.html

I believe we were the first to make a connection between malocclusion and jaw muscles. Now when Dr. Legendre does seminars, he includes this information.

Another recently discovered cause of malocclusion is the jaw getting misaligned and stuck in one spot(usually gets stuck on a ridge). Weak jaw muscles can make them more susceptible to this. An animal physical therapist can maneuver a misaligned jaw back into position but the muscles must be built up again to keep it in position.

An vet won't notice this misalignment while the animal is sedated because all the muscles and joints are relaxed. Misaligned jaws can be felt. They feel thick and unmoving on one or both sides. The lower jaw should move back and forth, to and fro, and up and down. You should feel the jaw (where it hinges) move well while they are chewing.

I believe that weakened jaw muscles (age related)is the most common cause of malocclusion in adult/senior pigs.

How can we prevent this from happening?

Reduce or completely remove pellets forcing them to get their calories from hay and grass. Dr. Legendre advocates complete removal of pellets. They will be forced to continually chew to get the same nutrition from hay that they get from pellets.

Dr. Legendre has told me that malocclusion does not occur in wild pigs to the degree it does in domesticated pigs. (He may have even said it doesn't occur in wild pigs at all.) Another well known dental vet (David Crossley, I think) did a study of skulls of wild pigs of various ages and the teeth were perfect. He attributed this to the rough and low nutrient diet that forced them to work their teeth continually (and in doing so, work their jaw muscles).

Causes of malocclusion:
1) genetic - usually seen in young animals under the age of 2.
2) weakened jaw muscles (TMJ)reducing the grinding contact of the molars - usually starts to be seen in animals over the age of 3.
3) jaw misalignment - usually caused by a weakness on one side of the jaw that allows an awkward jaw movement to lock the jaw into place. Usually seen in older pigs - diagonal incisors indicates a problem on one side of the jaw that could be jaw misalignment or TMJ on just one side.

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