I added a link back to your thread here:
https://www.guinealynx.info/records/view ... ?p=366#366
Smokey - pharyngeal abnormality
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Talishan
- You can quote me
Gabapentin (Neurontin) is a neurological agent that can be used in guinea pigs. We've used it for one of ours. There's a dose for it in Carpenter's IIRC.
Steroids are the most powerful anti-inflammatory agent there is. That said, I'm sure you know they're tricky to use in guinea pigs. That said, we've had two on a low dose of prednisolone long-term, with great benefit and no side effect that I could tell.
The two we used pred for did not have a condition like Smokey's, so I can't speak to whether it would help him or not. At this point I'd want to try it if it were me. There's an old saying out there, "better pred than dead". Harsh, but if his quality of life is really declining I'd want to try it.
Steroids are the most powerful anti-inflammatory agent there is. That said, I'm sure you know they're tricky to use in guinea pigs. That said, we've had two on a low dose of prednisolone long-term, with great benefit and no side effect that I could tell.
The two we used pred for did not have a condition like Smokey's, so I can't speak to whether it would help him or not. At this point I'd want to try it if it were me. There's an old saying out there, "better pred than dead". Harsh, but if his quality of life is really declining I'd want to try it.
Thanks, Talishan. We go to the vet tomorrow. I appreciate the info you posted.
Can you tell me what conditions your pigs had that led to them being on prednisolone and also the neurontin?
I'm struggling with what exactly to do here. In the past my litmus test has always been "are they able to be guinea pigs?" Can they eat, play, interact, etc like "regular" guinea pigs?
That's not the case with Smokey, and probably never will be. He struggles to breathe, and any movement worsens that. He stays in his hidey 90% of the time that I'm around. He occasionally will leave to sit right next to that on a warming pad. There's very little poo any where else in the cage, so even when I'm not around he probably isn't moving around the cage much.
He wasn't going to the hay box or water bottle. I placed a handful of hay near the hidey and he ate that. I've moved the water bottle closer.
I sit with him in my lap at least twice a day. He gets snuggled in fleece, I give him his medications and then some CC, which he eats pretty well. The time he spends on my lap is just lovely - he seems content, and I'm certainly happy. Occasionally he'll seem brave enough to venture out of the fleece and start walking around my lap and even tries to jump onto the couch.
He doesn't seem to be suffering. He's on metacam. Maybe it's okay that he leads a quiet simple life. But he does struggle so to breathe, and I know it limits his life.
Heavens. . .I just don't know how to proceed here. I hope the vet will give me some useful info.
Can you tell me what conditions your pigs had that led to them being on prednisolone and also the neurontin?
I'm struggling with what exactly to do here. In the past my litmus test has always been "are they able to be guinea pigs?" Can they eat, play, interact, etc like "regular" guinea pigs?
That's not the case with Smokey, and probably never will be. He struggles to breathe, and any movement worsens that. He stays in his hidey 90% of the time that I'm around. He occasionally will leave to sit right next to that on a warming pad. There's very little poo any where else in the cage, so even when I'm not around he probably isn't moving around the cage much.
He wasn't going to the hay box or water bottle. I placed a handful of hay near the hidey and he ate that. I've moved the water bottle closer.
I sit with him in my lap at least twice a day. He gets snuggled in fleece, I give him his medications and then some CC, which he eats pretty well. The time he spends on my lap is just lovely - he seems content, and I'm certainly happy. Occasionally he'll seem brave enough to venture out of the fleece and start walking around my lap and even tries to jump onto the couch.
He doesn't seem to be suffering. He's on metacam. Maybe it's okay that he leads a quiet simple life. But he does struggle so to breathe, and I know it limits his life.
Heavens. . .I just don't know how to proceed here. I hope the vet will give me some useful info.
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Talishan
- You can quote me
"Can you tell me what conditions your pigs had that led to them being on prednisolone and also the neurontin?"
One had a slow-growing, very large (not surgically removable) tumor. He was on pred for well over a year.
The other developed a diagonal paralysis, for lack of a better way to put it, after a very long and very intense surgery (stone was stuck in the urethra and the vet had to dig it out). He was on pred for over a year, and on gabapentin for a few weeks. We discontinued it after it didn't seem to help him. It didn't hurt him, though.
Please let us know what the vet says. If he doesn't seem to be suffering, I'd treat him the best I could and let him be who and what he is for as long as he has. That said, he's not my pig and I'm not you. Go with your gut.
One had a slow-growing, very large (not surgically removable) tumor. He was on pred for well over a year.
The other developed a diagonal paralysis, for lack of a better way to put it, after a very long and very intense surgery (stone was stuck in the urethra and the vet had to dig it out). He was on pred for over a year, and on gabapentin for a few weeks. We discontinued it after it didn't seem to help him. It didn't hurt him, though.
Please let us know what the vet says. If he doesn't seem to be suffering, I'd treat him the best I could and let him be who and what he is for as long as he has. That said, he's not my pig and I'm not you. Go with your gut.
So, the latest update is a sad one. I love Dr. M. because she's so willing to take the time and have really good discussions with me. We talk about what the problem is, what the treatment options are, and then what the ethical thing to do is. It's such a pleasure to work with her.
She's was really so distressed hearing Smokey's breathing. It sounded to her like it was coming from both his throat and his nasal area. His breaths come sharply and are not at all the gentle rise and fall or normal breathing.
Her best guess was that it's some sort of laryngeal paralysis. In terms of treatment options, there are very limited ones. Surgery is not an options. Steroids are risky and she hasn't seen much success with them (in her opinion). We opted to increase the metacam to keep him comfortable.
Olive was with me only 2 months. In the end she went into respiratory failure, which was quite upsetting to see. Anticipating that, Dr. M. suggested if/when Smokey went into failure, I could add a does or two of metacam. We discussed whether to bring him in for euthanizing, or just let him pass at home. It's hard to predict how long the failure could go on for, but Dr. M. doesn't think it would last long - so as long as I could keep him comfy. . .
She did, ever so gently, ask if I would allow her to do a necropsy afterwards, to determine what's really going on with him. I agreed, and will surely post those results when the time comes
So, I'm spending lots of cuddle time with him, monitoring him and keeping him comfy. This will be a hard one for me, but I'm hopeful that some useful info will come out of this for the next pig. . .
She's was really so distressed hearing Smokey's breathing. It sounded to her like it was coming from both his throat and his nasal area. His breaths come sharply and are not at all the gentle rise and fall or normal breathing.
Her best guess was that it's some sort of laryngeal paralysis. In terms of treatment options, there are very limited ones. Surgery is not an options. Steroids are risky and she hasn't seen much success with them (in her opinion). We opted to increase the metacam to keep him comfortable.
Olive was with me only 2 months. In the end she went into respiratory failure, which was quite upsetting to see. Anticipating that, Dr. M. suggested if/when Smokey went into failure, I could add a does or two of metacam. We discussed whether to bring him in for euthanizing, or just let him pass at home. It's hard to predict how long the failure could go on for, but Dr. M. doesn't think it would last long - so as long as I could keep him comfy. . .
She did, ever so gently, ask if I would allow her to do a necropsy afterwards, to determine what's really going on with him. I agreed, and will surely post those results when the time comes
So, I'm spending lots of cuddle time with him, monitoring him and keeping him comfy. This will be a hard one for me, but I'm hopeful that some useful info will come out of this for the next pig. . .
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Talishan
- You can quote me
This will be a tough row to hoe, but you, in my opinion, are choosing the very best possible course. For Smokey, for Olive's memory, for other pigs that could benefit greatly from their experience and from what you've learned and posted, and for all of us.
Certainly not for you. You have chosen the hardest and most selfless route possible. Kudos to you for that.
In my experience (and this is *only* my experience, and not a recommendation per se), we have let pigs in similar states pass at home. We also keep injectable buprenorphine on hand. The injectable can be given orally (it's actually absorbed transdermally, but is such a small amount that just shooting it into the buccal pad area does the job).
Max Carpenter's for this med is IIRC 0.2 mL/kg of pig, using the standard 0.3 mg/mL injectable (or 0.06 mg/kg of pig).
I am NOT repeating NOT advocating ANY TYPE of home euthanasia. Please be clear about that (for other readers more than for you, you know what you're doing). That med, however, can definitely ease the trip over if it gets to that point and you know that's the point you're at.
Carry on, cherish your time with him and please keep us posted.
Certainly not for you. You have chosen the hardest and most selfless route possible. Kudos to you for that.
In my experience (and this is *only* my experience, and not a recommendation per se), we have let pigs in similar states pass at home. We also keep injectable buprenorphine on hand. The injectable can be given orally (it's actually absorbed transdermally, but is such a small amount that just shooting it into the buccal pad area does the job).
Max Carpenter's for this med is IIRC 0.2 mL/kg of pig, using the standard 0.3 mg/mL injectable (or 0.06 mg/kg of pig).
I am NOT repeating NOT advocating ANY TYPE of home euthanasia. Please be clear about that (for other readers more than for you, you know what you're doing). That med, however, can definitely ease the trip over if it gets to that point and you know that's the point you're at.
Carry on, cherish your time with him and please keep us posted.
Talishan - I can't thank you enough for your post. It means a lot to me.
I feel like I've learned so much from all these special pigs - from Jerry and Charlie Brown, and now Smokey.
I appreciate you sharing the info about medications and will keep that in mind. Yes, it is my goal to let Smokey stay at home. Why not?
I do hope the experiences will be useful to other pigs as well. I'll post with updates as they come.
Right now Smokey is doing well on an increased dose of metacam. He's on .3 ml 2x day and I rarely hear his raspy breathing - at least for now.
I'm enjoying my time with this special little boy.
I feel like I've learned so much from all these special pigs - from Jerry and Charlie Brown, and now Smokey.
I appreciate you sharing the info about medications and will keep that in mind. Yes, it is my goal to let Smokey stay at home. Why not?
I do hope the experiences will be useful to other pigs as well. I'll post with updates as they come.
Right now Smokey is doing well on an increased dose of metacam. He's on .3 ml 2x day and I rarely hear his raspy breathing - at least for now.
I'm enjoying my time with this special little boy.
So, just to share some good news as well as the bad. . .
As with Olive, Smokey eats his veggies well if I slice them into little pieces. He seems to have trouble getting pellets out of a dish, so I tried putting them on a flat plate and he was able to gobble them up.
The increase in Metacam is helping. When syringe feeding him, if I slide the syringe into the side of his mouth, rather than ask him to take it with a (slightly) up-turned head he does better.
The above makes me think there really must be something happening in his neck area that interferes with his eating, breathing, etc.
He's come to enjoy lap time. I elevator him out in his hidey, then we sit on the sofa. I take him out and put him on my lap and he gets his CC until he decides he's had enough (I usually try to push at least one more syringe full in anyway!). Then I bring the hidey back and he clambers in. I pull him back on my lap for awhile, and that's when he gets funny.
He'll get brave enough to poke his head in and out, even occasionally venturing a bit down my leg to the sofa, then quickly scrambling back inside. He'll just stare at me, while I do some paper work. Last night he came out and sniffed my face, then dashed back in like he was being by a hawk!
I just love this guy!!
As with Olive, Smokey eats his veggies well if I slice them into little pieces. He seems to have trouble getting pellets out of a dish, so I tried putting them on a flat plate and he was able to gobble them up.
The increase in Metacam is helping. When syringe feeding him, if I slide the syringe into the side of his mouth, rather than ask him to take it with a (slightly) up-turned head he does better.
The above makes me think there really must be something happening in his neck area that interferes with his eating, breathing, etc.
He's come to enjoy lap time. I elevator him out in his hidey, then we sit on the sofa. I take him out and put him on my lap and he gets his CC until he decides he's had enough (I usually try to push at least one more syringe full in anyway!). Then I bring the hidey back and he clambers in. I pull him back on my lap for awhile, and that's when he gets funny.
He'll get brave enough to poke his head in and out, even occasionally venturing a bit down my leg to the sofa, then quickly scrambling back inside. He'll just stare at me, while I do some paper work. Last night he came out and sniffed my face, then dashed back in like he was being by a hawk!
I just love this guy!!
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Talishan
- You can quote me
Ditto. Carry on. There will be bad days and good days, probably. If the Metacam is helping, by all means keep it up. It's possible the anti-inflammatory action of it is keeping the neck/throat problem swelling reduced a little, at least enough to give him some relief and that's what you're shooting for.
Well, who'd have thought! I decided to move Smokey into the soft herd. I figured if he was going to just hang out in his hidey, he may as well do it there. He wouldn't get picked on, and it would free up a spot for a cage and some other pigs.
Well, I put him down, via an elevator ride in his favorite hidey, and he's become a different pig! He's running around like a maniac - even popcorning!! He's alert and hasn't yet spent a minute inside his hidey since landing. He's terrifying Dak (my pig with LWS), but not too badly. He just seems so happy!!
I'm keeping an eye on his breathing, but so far he's doing okay. I'm guessing he'll self-regulate anyway.
I'm astounded and pretty happy. I'm hoping that Dak and he will come to terms pretty quickly however. Dak doesn't really do well with new pigs - he's pretty defenseless - deaf, blind, no opposing teeth to bite with. .
Well, I put him down, via an elevator ride in his favorite hidey, and he's become a different pig! He's running around like a maniac - even popcorning!! He's alert and hasn't yet spent a minute inside his hidey since landing. He's terrifying Dak (my pig with LWS), but not too badly. He just seems so happy!!
I'm keeping an eye on his breathing, but so far he's doing okay. I'm guessing he'll self-regulate anyway.
I'm astounded and pretty happy. I'm hoping that Dak and he will come to terms pretty quickly however. Dak doesn't really do well with new pigs - he's pretty defenseless - deaf, blind, no opposing teeth to bite with. .
SHOP AMAZON