Zoe's Medical Thread

[Delaine]

Thanks Talishan. I gave her a full dose before I read this so will start tomorrow. Does it make sense to give Metacam in the morning or would suggest a better time?

[Talishan]

Give it, IMO, prior to when she will be unattended for the longest period of time, which I'll assume would be in the morning.

In my experience (only!!), Metacam stays in the system for a little less than 24 hours -- say, maybe about 19 or 20. That's why I have a problem with 24 hour dosing. What we've done if we can work it is even to give a 2/3, 1/3 dose, depending on how they're feeling and what our schedule is.

You can "overlap" a little, but you don't want to overlap the drug's active time in the system by too much (if that makes any sense).

[Delaine]

I phoned Zoe's vet office and they suggested giving her a normal dose today at the usual time (4:30 pm) and then tomorrow at noon and 8:00am the next day. It will be a four hour overlap twice but then we will be on the morning schedule for the rest of the two weeks.

I like mornings because as the medication wears off she will probably still be in her bed sleeping and not as active anyways. Once I get up they started begging for food.

[Talishan]

Sounds like a good plan. Your vet's advice dovetails perfectly with my experience with Metacam.

[Delaine]

I have been testing Zoe's urine with my strips and a couple of times she tested positive for blood. Some days clear, some not. She has no symptoms of pain or discomfort when urinating or defecating but to be on the safe side we went to the vets today.

We had an urinalysis done which showed blood, calcium carbonate and calcium oxalate crystals and sludge. There was no bacteria or infection present so we had an X-ray done. This is the third X-ray in two months, two looking for bladder stones and one on her toe.

Zoe has a very, very small stone forming. The vet said it is so tiny and a slight step up from sludge. She could hardly see it and had to magnify the X-ray before she noticed it. We are hoping she will pass it. She passed two larger ones just over a year ago.

She was given a sub-Q and instructions to increase water, leafy greens and exercise. My life already revolves around increasing both of these but I guess I will have to try harder. I have been working more than usual lately so haven't been home to encourage movement and water consumption.

So now we are just waiting to see which way this all goes. I've had a bad feeling lately after reading bpatters thread.

[bpatters]

Sorry to hear about the incipient stone. Maybe it will be some comfort to know that when Flourish had hers 2.5 years ago, the first x-ray showed two stones. I did sub-Qs for several days, and when I took her in again, she had passed one of them.

The other thing is, with a very small stone and a very skilled vet, they can sometimes retrieve them without surgery. The best exotic place in Houston will try that before surgery if the stone is small enough to pass, but they're beyond expensive, so I haven't been able to do it.

My pigs ADORE pedialyte, and that's a good way to get extra liquids in them.

[Delaine]

Thanks bpatters.

I had her X-rayed March 6th for stones before we decided to go ahead with the spay. She was totally clear at that time so this has happened in just over two months.

I blame myself because in an attempt to get weight on her after the spay I introduced a few oat flakes, shelled organic sunflower seeds, extra pellets, more greens and grass. I was aware at the time I was playing with fire but was desperate for her to gain back the three ounces she lost. When I first noticed the blood I cut out the seeds, oats and extra pellets.

She still gets extra greens (red and green leaf lettuce and escarole). She also gets peppers and grass.

What about grass in relationship to stones? Good or bad. Zoe thinks grass is VERY good and it is the closest food to hay so how can it be bad.

I am glad you mentioned Pedialyte because that came to mind today but I forgot to mention it to my vet. Have you noticed any change in their stools resulting in loose or misshapen stool? Zoe has been prone to digestive upsets in the past. Could you please give me the exact formula you are using. Should I dilute it with water? How much are you giving?

[bpatters]

I give all they'll take of straight Pedialyte when I'm giving it. Depending on how long I'm willing to stand by the cage with the syringe in my hand, they'll take 5 cc or so at a time. You can put it in the water bottle, but you can't leave it long, and you have to wash the bottle immediately. As my stepfather used to say about raising turkeys, "They're born determined to die." Pedialye is born determined to grow mold, so you have to be really careful with it. I usually pour it up in an ice cube tray, then just thaw one cube when I need it.

You have to be careful about grass. It can be really high in calcium, and the amount varies widely with when it's harvested.

I know three ounces is a lot, but guinea pigs will eventually gain weight after an illness (assuming it's cured, of course), and I'm not sure it's worth the effort or the risk to make them gain quickly.

My Ruffles had lost about five ounces a year or so ago, mostly a slow decline but then a fairly rapid one. The vet checked her over and found nothing wrong, but suggested a vitamin C supplement. I gave that to her, and made no other changes in her diet, and she's gained about about 3.5 ounces of it. I think that's pretty good for a senior pig.

[Lynx]

I was not aware grass could be high in calcium. Alfalfa and clover can be high though. Can you point me to some info? What I have for grass hays indicates the calcium is fairly moderate.

https://www.guinealynx.info/hay_chart.html

[bpatters]

I had several references, Lynx, but they're bookmarked on my old disk drive, which I can't find at the moment. One was a University of Kentucky study, but I can't find it online, either.

One thing I do remember reading is that calcium content in grass is heavily dependent on the calcium content in the soil. So grass grown in soil with a lot of limestone will have more calcium than grass grown on a different soil. Here's one reference that supports that: http://www.sulcata-station.org/diet.html

Here's one old reference: http://digital.library.okstate.edu/oas/ ... p36_44.pdf

[Lynx]

The first link does not support any useful information. They claim " If you live in a semi-arid or arid area with little rainfall, the calcium levels in your local soil will be relatively high. Any grasses grown in such a calcium-rich soil will also be high in calcium, so if you allow your tortoise to graze at will on grasses grown in this soil, you might not have to give your tortoise as much in the way of calcium supplements." High is a relative term. No solid data given on what this might mean. This is unlikely to be hay harvested for cattle and horses. Arid regions will not support the hays we provide our guinea pigs. They also claim, "However, if you live in a rainy, humid area, then the calcium levels in your soil will be very low because it is dissolved and removed from the soil by the frequent rainfall. Any grasses grown in your local soil will be calcium-poor. " I think of grasses growing optimally with adequate nutrients supplied to them. If adequate nutrients are not supplied, the hay will be of lesser quality and have less vitamins, minerals, and nutrients.

The second pdf is focused on the nutrient content of a variety of weeds. The article is dated 1933.

The summary said, "A study of the nitrogen, phosphorus, and calcium content of common weeds and native grasses growing in Oklahoma was made. Two hundred and twenty-nine composite samples were collected and analyzed. This collection included fifty-nine different species of plants. Weeds were higher in nitrogen, phosphorus, and calcium than grasses, and plants growing on good soil were higher in nitrogen than similar plants growing on poor soil, [text missing?] Young plants are higher in mineral nutrients and nitrogen than older plants. The stems are lower in nitrogen, phosphorus, and calcium than the leaves. [text on two weeds] The effect of weeds on the preservation of plant foods and the possible stimulation of nitrogen fixation has meen[sic] emphasized." As a grass matures, the nutrients move into the seed heads. I think the calcium mostly stays in the leaves and stem.

Maybe I could break off this conversation for the Cavy Chat forum?

I have no doubt that grass grown in poor soil would have lower levels of calcium. I do not think grass grown in calcium rich soil will necessarily shoot up.

One interesting thing would be to consult some testing labs and see what the range of calcium is in grass hays. If there are no super high ranges, this would support my theory.

[bpatters]

I don't think we're talking about grass hay, I think we're talking about lawn grass, and there's very little information out there about its nutrient value.

I know those aren't the good references, but they were all I could find in a hurry last night.

But I do think there's a lot of info out there supporting the fact that calcium-rich soil produces calcium-rich grass.