Zoe's Medical Thread

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Lynx
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Post   » Sun May 17, 2015 10:22 am


I think it depends on the individual pig. It depends on how easily it can be excreted or whether some of it is kind of settling and not getting excreted (may depend on the conformation of the bladder and urethra).

What I observed years ago is piles of powdery deposits from my pigs after I gave them a pile of romaine. And then they sometimes peed nice clear urine too. So I think what they've eaten recently affects this.

But the subcues and increased fluid making it pass also makes a lot of sense. For guinea pigs prone to stones, sludge, increased fluids is a good idea. I think of a vibrating pad or something to increase suspension of any calcium compounds so they can be peed out.

I do have to say I gave my pigs lots of fresh grass year round. I did associate their calcium deposits more with the romaine than the grass (but I am remembering from some years back). I think of the Oxbow pellets having a lot to do with the deposits.

When you are documenting, if (say, for a week) you also wrote down more detailed info on what they were eating for a day and when and when powdery deposits happened, that might help.

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Delaine
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Post   » Sun May 17, 2015 12:16 pm


Lynx: I have noticed a difference in the CONSISTENCY of the sludge since they have been on KMS pellets. This difference is quite pronounced. Oxbow sludge is gritty and sand like. KMS sludge is not gritty. It has a powdery consistency and sometimes resembles a flour and water paste. I am not sure what this difference in the consistency means in relationship to sludge being passed or stones being formed but it is worth mentioning.

My girls normal diet is always the same and I weigh the greens and pepper so that is a constant. I am documenting any changes or additions in diet such as grass and water. I will get more detailed regarding the amount of sludge in relationship to diet.

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Lynx
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Post   » Sun May 17, 2015 4:07 pm


And in relation to time of day (I hope you caught that). I think most but not all sludge (depending on how well the bladder is passing sludge) is excreted in a timely manner (will depend on rate of digestion, etc.).

Talishan
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Post   » Sun May 17, 2015 6:46 pm


"Oxbow sludge is gritty and sand like. KMS sludge is not gritty. It has a powdery consistency and sometimes resembles a flour and water paste."

The occasional "flour and water paste"-ish stuff is much closer to what it should be in a normal (that is, un-calcium-challenged) pig.

Romaine has proven to be a huge trapdoor at our house. We've had a LOT of calcium problems with it with several pigs, and quite serious problems with it with a couple of pigs. It's a shame because it lasts for a long time in the fridge and the pigs love it, but we don't feed it and haven't for years now.

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Delaine
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Post   » Sun May 17, 2015 8:33 pm


Interesting on the flour and water paste-ish sludge. I didn't know that. I haven't fed romaine lettuce for a couple of years since reading to be cautious of it.

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Lynx
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Post   » Sun May 17, 2015 8:42 pm


Ditto on the lasting forever in the fridge and the pigs loving it. It is too bad it seems to cause problems.

Talishan
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Post   » Mon May 18, 2015 2:04 pm


The flour-and-water-paste-ish stuff isn't ideal. It's still a bit of a warning flag -- but it's vastly superior to gritty stuff.

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Delaine
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Post   » Mon May 18, 2015 6:21 pm


I know she can pass the gritty stuff because I have seen her do it and have the small stones in a jar. I hope the same is true of this paste-ish sludge.

It is interesting because Abbey passes more sludge than Zoe but Zoe ended up with stones. I wonder if what Lynx says about the anatomy of the bladder holds true. Maybe Zoe stores it longer while Abbey gets rid of it daily.

So many questions, so few answers.

Talishan
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Post   » Mon May 18, 2015 7:11 pm


I think so. Anatomy of the bladder, exercise levels, genetics; lots of factors, unfortunately none of which will prevent stones. :-(

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Delaine
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Post   » Thu May 21, 2015 12:13 am


I removed all grass from the girls diet on Monday and they had very little Sunday. I have also been removing as many Timothy seed heads as possible. I just wanted to see if it made a difference.

I think it has. I am seeing very few deposits and both girls are a little more active. I tested Zoe's and Abbey's urine tonight and both tested clear. Not a trace of blood.

I will continue to test their urine for blood. That is the best way to monitor irritation in the bladder or the rest of the urinary tract. They are very co-operative and like to jump into a litter box and pee.

It will be interesting to see how they do long term.

bpatters
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Post   » Thu May 21, 2015 8:59 am


Yesterday, the vet told me she'd recently been to a conference in Orlando where one of the speakers addressed urinary calcium in herbivores. I believe the focus of the speech was on ferrets, but the speaker stressed that one of the most important things you can do for a small herbivore is keep them moving so the sludge gets peed out. He even says to chase them around the cage if necessary.

That was the one major difference between my Flourish and Ruffles. Ruffles, at nearly six, is still doing zoomies around the cage a couple of times a day. Flourish was a slug all her life, and she was the the one with stones. Everything else in their environment and diet was exactly the same.

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Lynx
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Post   » Thu May 21, 2015 11:06 am


Maybe everyone with sedentary guinea pigs needs a vibrating pad when they hold them! (and extra fluids)

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