At least 128 dead in terror attack Paris 13 November 2015

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:00 am


This void idea is a false construct IMO.

Being human means living in our society and making sense of it. The social and familial structure and who we are and the decisions we make accompany us through life.

Lack of belief in a god does not create a void, except in the view of people for whom a god is central to their lives.

I think we try to understand the apparent bad choices some people make because some of those choices are so horrendous. But that doesn't mean the construct applies to them.

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jacqueline

Post   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:34 am


This is a larger idea, beyond the whole shooter/violence discussion. I do believe that there is in most people a vague sense of "there's something more". There is this "need" to find meaning, to connect to something greater and more. I believe it's what's behind us living together in families and communities. Most of us would be hard pressed to live in total isolation

We have an innate need to be part of something more than ourselves. Whether it's a biological family, a gang, an idealistic/political group, spiritual/religious group, etc.

Most of us have some need to find meaning in our existence. Often that meaning comes with a story we tell ourselves about taking care of other people, our families, our work, being "good" etc.

Why do we need to find meaning? Why is it so important to have a story where we connect to something more than just these biological bodies? Many times it's to feel connected to a greater "thing" out there somewhere. Sometimes that greater thing is religious, like a god. Sometimes it's a idealogie - caring for the planet, sometimes it's smaller - creating a life with people/animals you love and care for and trying to be "good".

I do believe we have an innate need to believe in something more, and to find a way to connect to that. Mostly in good ways. Unfortunately sometimes in destructive ways.

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JaneDoe

Post   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:00 am


The shooters had a daughter, too. Poor child.

I've been reading about Seung He Cho and Adam Lanza, the shooters in the Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook massacres. Both of them killed themselves.

I know this couple was killed in a police shootout, but I can't get my head around it. I guess people who take down so many people, then kill themselves must be out of their minds with pain.

I'm also thinking of one of my cousins who was found dead with his young son in an apparent murder suicide. At least he didn't take anyone else down.

rpaws

Post   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:21 pm


Lynx,
This was a lecture given by a pastor (I think that's what they call them in that denomination). His push was that G-d fills the void in the human being - all else leads to destruction. (When you follow G-d = do good, follow His will, be a better person, etc.)

I am with you on the "honorable, responsible, loving, community supporting atheists everywhere." I have met them. Some of the worst treatment I have ever received has been at the hands of so-called "G-d fearing people. I have met non-Christians who have been better 'Christians' (being loving caring people ) than professed Christians.

It's like the Ghandi quote: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

I figure people have to right to choose their own path and do what they want as long as it does not impede other's people's rights.

I do agree with the 'void' idea though. For (well most) people, they want to have a sense of purpose in their life. They are going to fill it with something - G-d, a group, an ideal, alcohol, power, children, the search for money, the need to impress, the amount of 'toys' they have in their life.

I wish I could express it better. It's what jacqueline wrote. We need to find meaning in life, "to be part of something more than ourselves."

I just do not get the destructive, violent ways. It's the quote by Terence I have trouble understanding "I am human, and nothing of that which is human is alien to me."

It's what JaneDoe wrote. I can understand people wanting to die/being out of their minds with pain. I just do NOT get the people wanting to take others with them.

Look at this couple. They had a 6 month old child. You would think that child would be so very important, so precious to them. That they would want to be there for their child, to see her grow. Instead they abandoned her and chose destruction. They murdered people who were kind enough to give them a baby shower. How could they view those people as 'objects' to be killed in their self-destructive rampage?

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:07 pm


I do admit to (when I was younger) trying to figure out the "meaning of life".

I guess the only thing I could come up with was my family. For some of us, that family extends to friends and neighbors.

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jacqueline

Post   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:08 pm


Yes, Lynx.

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Wheekers3

Post   » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:03 am


Right Lynx. The old answer why kids join gangs is a human need for a close family. You could replace the word religion with family and that could've been written in the early 80's. Its a basic human need to belong somewhere.

I worry about babies hardly seeing their smiling Momma's face because a cell phone is in the way. What is that going to do to a kid's brain?

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NoCableisSafe

Post   » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:16 am


Did you all hear about the shooting in Planned Parenthood!

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jacqueline

Post   » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:32 am


The one last week or has there been another?

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JaneDoe

Post   » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:05 pm


A guy was stabbed in England. I've been to that train station: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-35021094

Crazy4me

Post   » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:05 pm


I think not only children but grown adults have times when they are trying to find their place in this world.

Wheekers, it seems like we live in a world when we no longer talk (using our voice/non verbal communication) to each other. Instead we hide behind computer screens, use text and social media to communicate; it is more convenient, but what message are those parents sending their kids.

Violence is on the rise (whether it is terrorists or not), and I wonder if some of it has to do with not having those verbal communication skills. I work with kids who have committed acts of violence; they have to learn how to communicate using words what they are feeling, instead of using guns, fists, knives and the like.

Erinspigs

Post   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:15 pm


Crazy4me, I think you are 100% correct. There is something more happening to cause violence to rise the way it has.

Also and unfortunately, people like Trump and others, despite their viewpoint, are using these different types of violent occurrences to stir people up to further their political ambitions and agenda. To use something so terrible for political gain is a sin.

Trump is literally making blatant racist remarks and being cheered for it. What is wrong with those people? From the history I’ve read and learned this is at least as bad as the Nazis. They had an entire country living in misery and however ignorant, looking to blame someone or something for their condition. The people at these Trump rallies appear to be middle class and above.

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jacqueline

Post   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:44 pm


If I remember my history correctly (big if) part of why Hitler came to power had to do with the dismal economic conditions the country was in. Yet another scary parallel.

Bookfan
For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:10 pm


"Also and unfortunately, people like Trump and others, despite their viewpoint, are using these different types of violent occurrences to stir people up to further their political ambitions and agenda. To use something so terrible for political gain is a sin. "


Yeah! It's called demagoguery. Hitler a good example & there are lots of others - Huey Long, Joe McCarthy, George Wallace, to name a few Americans. In part it's using fear to manipulate people's opinions.

Bookfan
For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:34 pm


Erinspigs - hope I didn't sound patronizing.

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JaneDoe

Post   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:07 pm


If I remember my history correctly (big if) part of why Hitler came to power had to do with the dismal economic conditions the country was in.
I think that was it, Jacqueline--that was how the Soviets came to power and Castro in Cuba after that.

Bookfan
For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:43 pm


In Germany it was the economy, but also the loss of WWI. It was a huge downer. And the Versailles Treaty at the end of WWI was severely punitive in a number of ways, including requiring Germany to pay reparations to the Allies which set them (Germans) on the road to economic disaster. And then there was the Great Depression.

Of course the Allies were angry with Germany - the loss of life was awful. But the draconian treaty really set things up for a second world war. A bit of enlightened self-interest was in order.

OK. Carry on. I'm really interested in WWII & couldn't resist expounding.

Erinspigs

Post   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:41 pm


Not at all Bookfan. Another new word for me - demagoguery, keep em coming!

I've read some historians say World War I and World War II were basically the same war with a 20 year truce.

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tashab

Post   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:41 pm


I'm currently reading Operation Paperclip, which was the US governments operation to bring German scientists to the USA at the end of WWII.
Humanity at that time did some messed up stuff.

Bookfan
For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:37 am


Yep. Wernher von Braun was a big hero here in the space program. I remember hearing about him as a kid. Also a Nazi & in the SS! in Germany. We didn't hear about that.

Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

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