2016 US Presidential Elections - who do you side with?

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Post   » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:55 pm

tashab> Seriously - to many parts of the Western world, it looks like America has lost its freaking mind.

We have.
I am going to Costco tomorrow to buy a truckload of vodka.
I gotta prepare.

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Post   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:21 am

I want Harry Reid back. I want the Senate back. I want the presidency back.

It does feel like America has lost its mind.

To clarify, I believe "defunding Planned Parenthood" is to say they don't want the services that they perform reimbursed by government health programs (mainly Medicaid funds?) the same way hospitals get paid for services by Medicaid and Medicare.

Republicans seem content to watch people die.

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:42 pm

"Another writer warns that we will be distracted by the Alt-Right, Steve Bannon, and dissension in Trump's transition team while Paul Ryan is working to undo Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid, programs that millions of people rely on."

Good point.


"You disregarded the health and safety of entire swaths of your fellow citizens and elected a man who horrifies most of the rest of the planet as completely unfit to govern anything, much less a large nation, because you think *you* will benefit in some manner.
Lower taxes, sticking it to the other party, you want a revolt within government - it doesn't matter. "

Touche, tashab.


"Seriously - to many parts of the Western world, it looks like America has lost its freaking mind."

And so it has.


"Republicans seem content to watch people die."

That's been the case for a long time.


Post   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:29 pm

"You disregarded the health and safety of entire swaths of your fellow citizens" Yup that's me alright. Doing what I've always done, disregarding the safety of my fellow citizens.

I have 23 broken bones from 2 helicopter crashes, I've been shot twice, I still have shrapnel in both legs and my back, I'm deaf in one ear, near blind in one eye and some other wounds you can't see. Yeah I disregard my fellow citizens safety, how dare you. I'm done being the punching bag, I tried to be nice, explain what some of the reasons people voted for him were so there might be conversation.

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Post   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:03 pm

Watch the video on the page I posted in the other thread:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/17/1600760/-Aftermat ... ion-of-Trump

This is how it looks from this side. Bookfan is angry and so am I. I try not to think about it. Trump is about as unamerican as you can get. You have been conned and he will fleece as many people as he can.

No matter how you explain your vote, we will never understand it. Not just your vote, but all the votes that got him elected.

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Post   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:40 pm

GPIG, I am not an American to start. And I have the utmost respect for veterans - it is a hard job that I don't think I could ever do. I have several friends who served in Afghanistan on behalf of my country and I respect them very much for doing that.

Being a veteran does not exempt you from criticism or disagreement of decisions you have made as a civilian. My friends who are veterans can discuss topics like this without resorting to "but I was injured serving our country doing such and such" arguments in attempt to side-step the point I, or others, are trying to make.

To all appearances to the outside world, a vote for Trump was essentially a vote to actively harm more vulnerable Americans. And America's trading partners. And vulnerable countries that America is currently protecting.
There are very good reasons that politicians like Angela Merkel in Germany, and the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon had diplomatic but not terrible nice things to say about Trump becoming president-elect.


Post   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:45 pm

"it is a hard job that I don't think I could ever do. I have several friends who served in Afghanistan on behalf of my country and I respect them very much for doing that".

You respect your friends but I don't hear anything about respect for him and it sure didn't come out in your prior post

I stayed out of this because I disagreed with his vote, I don't anymore. Goodbye, love and light to all of you.

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:49 am

@GPIG - if you are still reading.

My sister & I were discussing the diversity of people who voted for Trump. I know there were a lot of disparate reasons and a lot of people who voted for him as a last resort because they couldn't stand Hillary. My nephew (who voted for Hillary but really supported Bernie) put forth the scenario of say, somehow Trump was the Dem. nominee (he's got some overlap with the Dems & is not totally aligned with the Republicans). And say he was running against Ted Cruz. As a Democratic voting American (I"m registered as an Independent) how would I vote, given that distasteful choice. Probably not at all. But I can see that's the situation many voters felt they were in. And a lot of them went with Trump. This playing with scenarios helped us understand.

If I recall, at least one of the factors in your choice was Hillary's hawkish stance - forget the details. Not all the prejudiced, white supremacist crap. So I can see that you could have voted for him on fairly specific grounds without agreeing with all the reprehensible things he said.

I may be wrong, but that's what I think I'm hearing from you.

And as Lynx said, I'm angry & what you're hearing is venting.

Over and out.

For the Love of Pigs

Post   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:33 am

And the source of some of my anger:

The day before yesterday on a school bus in the most affluent part of the metropolitan area, some white kids made the black kids sit in the back of the bus.

Also, I have a daughter who may never be able to support herself or at the very least have a job that provides health insurance. We're paying full price for her insurance now. That will become more difficult when we retire & we won't be here forever. Who knows what will be available for those who don't have ins. through work. Pre-Obamacare, my daughter couldn't even get insurance on the open market because of pre-existing conditions. We would have been paying 1000/month in the high risk pool.


Post   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:19 pm

A pet peeve, there is no such thing as over and out. It’s over or out, never both together. Over indicates you are done speaking and waiting for a reply. Out indicates you are done with the communication and the transmission will end, you will not be listening for a reply.

I just thought you would want to know that Bookfan, I’ve always thought of you as someone who enjoys learning. I still do.

And got the T-shirt

Post   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:29 pm

GPIG, I hope you'll reconsider. I know I've learned quite a bit from you, and I'll miss hearing from you.

I thing there was serious miscommunication around "disregarded the health and safety of entire swaths of your fellow citizens." No one was questioning your sacrifices, or the scars that you carry from your service. It's that a vote for any Republican is a vote for discontinuing any kind of health care for the neediest American citizens. There are thousands out there who, for the first time, have insurance in spite of pre-existing conditions, and coverage for children until they can get themselves established. It's the worsening of the health and welfare of those people that a vote for Trump endorses.

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Post   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:11 pm

I apologize GPIG. It is clear that I did not accurately represent what I was trying to say.
I do think that you bring valuable perspectives to this forum.

Bpatters, you have exactly what my intention was with my statement.

I will step out of this discussion from here on out.

And got the T-shirt

Post   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:01 pm

Don't do that, tashab. We need all the voices if we're all ever going to understand each other.


Post   » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:19 am

sorry posted before done have to do this again


Post   » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:00 am

Thank you Tashab, please don't step out. It is good to have the perspective of a friend from Canada. I fought with Canadians; they are some of the toughest people I've ever met. I have nothing but admiration for your country and way of life. I've never met a Canadian that isn't proud of their country; wish I could say the same about the US.

I have to learn to not be as sensitive, I'm sure you all would be surprised. (I also need to stop saying you all; I'm from NJ for God’s sake!) When you come to a liberal leaning website and say you voted for Trump one shouldn't expect hugs! But i do think sharing all ideas, beliefs, and ways of life is important, as long as there isn't hate and violence.

I am well aware of the hate in this country. It greatly disturbs and troubles me. I do understand Trump gives legitimacy to that hate but hate is tricky. Sussing out hate out, as opposed to allowing it to fester in the shadows gives greater chance to identifying and possibly dealing with it before it's impossible to do so. My perspective is very different than what I think most of you see. I may only have an 8th grade education and not as scholarly as you all but my vote was not a product of ignorance.

I grew up fighting; I’m not afraid to fight again but I can’t fight what I can’t see. I’m also not a seer of some sort that envisioned this scenario unfolding with perfect clarity. Bottom line, there are three sides, your side, my side and the hate side. My side and your side can work it out – the hate side has to go and together we can eliminate it but not if my side and your side are not able to compromise. I know you don’t want to hear this, and please don’t beat me up over it or shoot the messenger, my side has to come a little left and your side has to come a little right. If that doesn’t happen it doesn’t matter who is president, nothing will change. We’ve been inside a gerbil wheel for a long time going round and round. I have no idea if this will jolt something into happening; I know the other way wasn’t going to.

And yes I have seen the hate first hand in the last week. My brothers and I own a Towing and Hazmat hauling/handling business, we also have a service station for mechanic work and we sell gas. Every morning many landscapers pull up with their trucks to fuel up for the day. They are mainly of Hispanic descent. They are hard-working and I count them as customers and friends. 2 of my drivers thought it would be funny to wave goodbye to them as they left, show me and make a joke out of how they were saying goodbye for good as they would be sent back to Mexico soon. I fired them both on the spot. In hindsight I realized firing them was wrong because they have families with kids to take care of and it would be the kids that suffered. I called them back and ended up suspending them for two weeks figuring that would be enough hardship to make them think about it but not hurt their families too bad. Because I didn’t have them, I had to drive 200 miles round trip, pick up a Maserati and take it to a rich person auto body shop near us. Trumps motorcade came by route 78 last night making me late because they closed express lanes. I told the owner about it who said it was ok I was late, because it was Trump and then made a racist comment. Can’t say how I dropped the car off the bed but he’s got extra work to do.

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Post   » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:54 pm

Most Canadians may be proud of our country, but we have our problems - the treatment of Native peoples in our country being a glaring example.

GPIG - I really appreciate that you have put thought into your voting decision. Education is not always a sign of being able - or even wanting - to use your brain.
I grew up in a more rural area and have known plenty of smart people in my life who have done decently well for themselves without much education.

I have no respect for the decision of my cousin-in-law's husband. He doesn't read the news, or bother to inform himself, and only voted for Trump because he was 'the Republican guy' and that's how his church votes.
They live in a rural area, neither of them work full time, and rely a lot on their parents for childcare, and other assistance. If Obamacare gets repealed they are one accident away from deep, serious doo-doo.

The news here is reporting a lot of the racist incidents happening now that Trump is president elect. We're also hearing about the $25 million decision against him for the Trump University fiasco (two of the instructors involved were originally from Canada and banned from doing any investing here). It is very worrisome.

Canada tends to get some spillover from what's happening on your side of the border, so I think some Canadians are a little more on edge about this than the rest of the world as a result.

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Post   » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:30 am

"We're also hearing about the $25 million decision against him for the Trump University fiasco ..."

He agreed to pay $25 million after saying he would never settle then tweeted it is but a small fraction of the potential award.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/19/1601923/-A-consumer ... ersity-tweet

In other commentary, that has had 2.5 million views:

Charles Gaba @charles_gaba
"Not all Trump supporters are racist, but all of them decided that racism isn’t a deal-breaker. End of story."


This is so true.


Post   » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:44 pm

Lynx, I understand what you are saying and it is a valid point. I did struggle with that point more than any other for any election. In the end, I don't know what is in his heart, if he has one, I believe he targeted and aimed to appease racists as a voting block. That may be worse, I'm not sure. Unfortunately, it is a large number of people who vote or were going to vote and he is, if nothing else pragmatic - he may be a hell of a lot worse, time will tell. I'm not sanguine about it all working out.

However, and again, I feel the other choice would stagnate this country into a place that will be worse in 4 years. I won't beat a dead horse listing why, I know you don't agree.

I felt our checks and balances will not allow him to deploy an agenda of racism. The president does not write legislation, as you know.

I received an email from my friend Donald (not sure how I got on the list I didn't donate money and I don't sign my name to anything) asking which points of his campaign promises do we feel a priority. I'm a little, not much but a little relieved all questions were actually legitimate issues and not the rhetoric of his campaign.

The wall building was no where on the list. Doesn't mean he doesn't intend to try. I'm already hearing he is hedging away from it because enough people who did vote for him don't want it and the people who didn't vote for him sure don't.

He will also not be able to deport the millions he has said he will, if he goes down that road he will be bottle necked. It will not happen.

I do understand the legitimacy his hate speech has given to other haters. I'm troubled and hope good people will not tolerate it and prevail. Somalis in Massachusetts, these are good people, who escaped a terrible situation, are happy and productive to be here. They must stay. I have no love for Somalia the country for personal reasons yet I understand blanket statements like that can not influence the decision to allow freedom loving Somalis from coming to our country because that is what we are, have been and must remain.

And got the T-shirt

Post   » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:07 pm

I think his first appointments say volumes about how he intends to govern. Sessions is so racist that even the Republicans refused to confirm him as a federal judge. Bannon is beyond any pale of decency, and takes pride in building the alt-right mouthpiece.

And I would like to personally cram Donald Trump's unsecure cell phone, on which he is speaking to foreign leaders, down the first person's throat who says "Hillary's emails" again.


Post   » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:27 am

Those are two very different things bpatters. The FBI as noted here here about 8 months ago were about to go off the job if Hillary wasn't held accountable for the emails. It was not a trivial thing she did.

Anyone who has ever had clearance, understands, is made aware of the situation, and the penalties, on a daily basis. You can't walk into a government office without seeing the signs, can't have a user account without training in securing your documents and devices.

If you work for most high end law firms investment banks, accounting firms, anywhere with client or proprietary information (we're not even talking eyes only classified top secret docs) you are reminded daily to not encrypt an outside email is grounds for immediate dismissal. If you do it, you will get an email from something like infosafe immediately asking for an explanation. If you don't have a good one, you're gone.

The point of what she did was that it wasn't a mistake for 4 years. It was a purposeful plan to hide and control her correspondence from oversight. While doing it she placed sensitive top secret documents along with a ton for confidential ones in jeopardy.

This isn't about conservative republicans dredging up nothing to make her look bad. It was a breach of national security and it wasn't a mistake. Hillary may be a lot of things, but naïve isn't one of them.

The FBI was not going to stop, agents are real big on consequences and they aren't all republicans.

The big difference between the calls by Trump and the emails by Hillary? One's illegal the other isn't.

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