Palliative care for 9 year old boy
Santino had his laser treatment this morning. Yesterday was a bad day for him. He didn't want to eat, not even his carrots. Last night, though, he lifted his head before I went to bed for a pet.
He hasn't purred in days and makes grunting noises any time I handle him. He's never been able to wheek, so he doesn't do that. Sometimes he chatters his teeth at me when I touch him. His back feet are very cold and pale. I told his tech about it today and she said it was because he doesn't move. I keep him covered up with a blanket.
My husband thinks it's time to euthanize him. I'm not so sure. His eyes are dull and rarely sparkle anymore. His front legs no longer work and he can barely lift his head. He doesn't eat hay or pellets. He's essentially a furry log that chews and is sometimes interested in his surroundings.
I made squishy little pillows, square ones and bolster shaped, to keep under him. They lift his head so he can still eat carrots and fruits if he wants. He seems to enjoy them.
He has a proper vet appointment scheduled for next Tuesday rather than a laser appointment.
He had trouble moving, but could still walk, prior to laser treatments. He declined very, very quickly, within days of starting laser, that my husband is wondering what he'll be like without the treatments. I think he's hoping the laser somehow made him unable to move and once it's discontinued, he'll gain his strength back. I haven't found any evidence online that laser causes progression of immobility, but rather the opposite. That's his only hesitation about euthanizing Santino. I'm curious to know what everyone's thoughts are on that. I read in the arthritis forum that laser has been successful.
Today Santino is better, though. He ate lettuce this morning, which he hasn't done in a few days. So far, he's finished 2 baby carrots. He didn't have interest in syringe feeding, but I think it's because he properly ate this morning.
I wish he could speak to me and let me know how he's feeling. I know we all wish that for our pets, even when they're not sick, just to be sure they're happy.
He hasn't purred in days and makes grunting noises any time I handle him. He's never been able to wheek, so he doesn't do that. Sometimes he chatters his teeth at me when I touch him. His back feet are very cold and pale. I told his tech about it today and she said it was because he doesn't move. I keep him covered up with a blanket.
My husband thinks it's time to euthanize him. I'm not so sure. His eyes are dull and rarely sparkle anymore. His front legs no longer work and he can barely lift his head. He doesn't eat hay or pellets. He's essentially a furry log that chews and is sometimes interested in his surroundings.
I made squishy little pillows, square ones and bolster shaped, to keep under him. They lift his head so he can still eat carrots and fruits if he wants. He seems to enjoy them.
He has a proper vet appointment scheduled for next Tuesday rather than a laser appointment.
He had trouble moving, but could still walk, prior to laser treatments. He declined very, very quickly, within days of starting laser, that my husband is wondering what he'll be like without the treatments. I think he's hoping the laser somehow made him unable to move and once it's discontinued, he'll gain his strength back. I haven't found any evidence online that laser causes progression of immobility, but rather the opposite. That's his only hesitation about euthanizing Santino. I'm curious to know what everyone's thoughts are on that. I read in the arthritis forum that laser has been successful.
Today Santino is better, though. He ate lettuce this morning, which he hasn't done in a few days. So far, he's finished 2 baby carrots. He didn't have interest in syringe feeding, but I think it's because he properly ate this morning.
I wish he could speak to me and let me know how he's feeling. I know we all wish that for our pets, even when they're not sick, just to be sure they're happy.
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bpatters
- And got the T-shirt
I know this is hard for you, but I'm with your husband. He's not going to have any significant improvement at that age. Santino doesn't understand time, or death. Having a few more pain-filled days is probably not something he'd choose for himself if he understood the situation. You seem to be keeping him alive for you, not for him. But he'll die soon anyway, and without any significant quality of life in the days he has left.
I approach things like this by way of what I'd want for myself. Death isn't the worst thing in the world, but living in pain, largely immobile, unable to enjoy any of the things life has to offer -- that's far worse, IMO.
I approach things like this by way of what I'd want for myself. Death isn't the worst thing in the world, but living in pain, largely immobile, unable to enjoy any of the things life has to offer -- that's far worse, IMO.
Honestly, a large part of me is with my husband, too. I know we're not supposed to put our human emotions on an animal (though I think we don't give them enough credit when it comes to consciousness and emotions), but if I were in his state, I would choose to move to Oregon so I could take advantage of die with dignity/assisted suicide. Santino's vet, though, has been optimistic since he's still eating. I thought it was harder for me to see him like this than it is for him to exist, but now that he can't move at all, I'm doubting that thought.
I appreciate your opinion, bpatters. I've seen your other posts, along with everyone else that had posted on this thread, and you all always offer sound advice.
I did think I was keeping him alive for only me, but was told otherwise. Now, though, I'm certain it's merely for myself and not what he would want. So much can change in a few days, I'm finding. My fear of making a mistake is preventing him from peace, I worry.
There was another thread in this forum where someone had to euthanize their pig even though the pig was still enjoying food. It made the decision painful, and I totally understand why. I can't find the thread right now. I told my husband last night that I think this is what will happen with Santino. Yes, he's eating and loves his carrots and especially mango now, but otherwise it would be misery to be him. I would feel trapped.
I would still like to wait until Tuesday for his vet appointment. The vet has treated Santino as his own and has done what he would do for his own pig. I would like to know what he would do at this point.
I do worry -- what if the vet wants to continue treatment?! I trust his judgement and don't want to question his knowledge, so I haven't. I've left everything in his hands, with the exception of doing another round of laser treatment. I went to the Journey's euthanasia scale because I read that's used by vets, and Santino's score was 22 out of 80. 8 is suffering, 80 is fine. I don't want to force him to 8.
For a couple of weeks there's been part of me that has wanted to euthanize him while he's not suffering because I don't want to force him to that place. It's so confusing to know what's right.
Sorry for all the rambling, everyone. I suppose I'm thinking out loud.
I appreciate your opinion, bpatters. I've seen your other posts, along with everyone else that had posted on this thread, and you all always offer sound advice.
I did think I was keeping him alive for only me, but was told otherwise. Now, though, I'm certain it's merely for myself and not what he would want. So much can change in a few days, I'm finding. My fear of making a mistake is preventing him from peace, I worry.
There was another thread in this forum where someone had to euthanize their pig even though the pig was still enjoying food. It made the decision painful, and I totally understand why. I can't find the thread right now. I told my husband last night that I think this is what will happen with Santino. Yes, he's eating and loves his carrots and especially mango now, but otherwise it would be misery to be him. I would feel trapped.
I would still like to wait until Tuesday for his vet appointment. The vet has treated Santino as his own and has done what he would do for his own pig. I would like to know what he would do at this point.
I do worry -- what if the vet wants to continue treatment?! I trust his judgement and don't want to question his knowledge, so I haven't. I've left everything in his hands, with the exception of doing another round of laser treatment. I went to the Journey's euthanasia scale because I read that's used by vets, and Santino's score was 22 out of 80. 8 is suffering, 80 is fine. I don't want to force him to 8.
For a couple of weeks there's been part of me that has wanted to euthanize him while he's not suffering because I don't want to force him to that place. It's so confusing to know what's right.
Sorry for all the rambling, everyone. I suppose I'm thinking out loud.
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daisymay
- Supporter 2016-2021
Follow your heart! NO-ONE can tell you what to do or what is right for your piggy! Your with Santino 24/7, only you know him best! Does he still enjoy his cuddles? If he is still eating I would keep going for now. You will know when it is time!
So you're right wanting to be 100% sure. Talk it over with your vet Tuesday, then you have all the facts and can make a wise well informed decision. Sending hugs and healing vibes your way! Maybe he will fall asleep on his own at home close to you and your husband, with people he knows and loves and in familiar circumstances. Enjoy every moment you have with him!
I don't want to bring religion into it, but life is God's precious gift and to take it away even to ease pain in a person to me is Murder and just isn't right. There is NO way I would do suicide not even if I was in a vegetable state. To me it is so wrong in a person! I would make a will saying that I wanted to live NO matter how bad things got. That is my opinion and I have to be 100% sure before I take my pets in to let them sleep forever. Even today I wonder whether I did the right thing!but if I were in his state, I would choose to move to Oregon so I could take advantage of die with dignity/assisted suicide.
So you're right wanting to be 100% sure. Talk it over with your vet Tuesday, then you have all the facts and can make a wise well informed decision. Sending hugs and healing vibes your way! Maybe he will fall asleep on his own at home close to you and your husband, with people he knows and loves and in familiar circumstances. Enjoy every moment you have with him!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Daisymay. I respect your opinion and know many people share your beliefs. Thank you for sending well wishes.
Thank you, Lynx. I think so, too. The more he deteriorates the less I think it will be a peaceful death on his own, though that's what I had hoped for.
Thank you, Lynx. I think so, too. The more he deteriorates the less I think it will be a peaceful death on his own, though that's what I had hoped for.
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bpatters
- And got the T-shirt
My own belief comes from watch my only sister dying of ovarian cancer, pleading with someone to put her out of her misery. Once you've watched someone you love suffering like that, you'll never look at death in the same way again.
Just my own $.02, but God's already decided we're all going to die. I don't see what possible purpose there is to extending a life that's degenerated into misery. He decided on death, but if I'm faced with that kind of end-of-life suffering, I'm going to choose the time.
Just my own $.02, but God's already decided we're all going to die. I don't see what possible purpose there is to extending a life that's degenerated into misery. He decided on death, but if I'm faced with that kind of end-of-life suffering, I'm going to choose the time.
I'm sorry about your sister, bpatters. It must have been horrific for her to exist like that and awful for you to have witnessed it. My line of thinking is along yours.
My uncle died of cancer. He was terminal and opted out of chemo because he wanted to simply die and not buy himself time filled with vomiting and pain. My family was very angry about his decision, but I fully supported it. He was a massive free spirit (or a rebel, depending on the view) and lived on his own terms. He became trapped in a failing body, death being the only peace. My heart broke for who he was. His did, too.
My uncle died of cancer. He was terminal and opted out of chemo because he wanted to simply die and not buy himself time filled with vomiting and pain. My family was very angry about his decision, but I fully supported it. He was a massive free spirit (or a rebel, depending on the view) and lived on his own terms. He became trapped in a failing body, death being the only peace. My heart broke for who he was. His did, too.
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mmeadow
- Supporter 2004-2022
Count me as one of those who would rather euthanize a pig who may have a few non-terrible days left than to wait until he or she is experiencing non-stop suffering. It's been a blessing (although a shock) to have a few pass quickly from strokes or heart attacks without prolonged discomfort.
We took a terminal pig with us on a road trip to spend Thanksgiving with family. We certainly could not leave her to die at home while we were away and upset the friend who was looking after our other pigs. I wanted to euthanize her before we went, but my partner did not. He spent a lot of the long weekend ducking into the spare bedroom to force-feed her. She died minutes after we got home. I'm glad we didn't need to interrupt Thanksgiving to put her body in my sister's freezer or something...that would not have gone over well.
We took a terminal pig with us on a road trip to spend Thanksgiving with family. We certainly could not leave her to die at home while we were away and upset the friend who was looking after our other pigs. I wanted to euthanize her before we went, but my partner did not. He spent a lot of the long weekend ducking into the spare bedroom to force-feed her. She died minutes after we got home. I'm glad we didn't need to interrupt Thanksgiving to put her body in my sister's freezer or something...that would not have gone over well.
Regarding laser therapy (cold light laser), we had also opted to have this for our 8yo (at the time, displaying some late onset arthritis), and as I was reading your thoughts on how it seemed Santiago's condition may have diminished post-laser, thought to share I had noticed similar with our boy and had questioned if the changes could have been causal. I also had heard that use of the laser could only benefit, though the timing of our boy's lessened movement just seemed odd. So we ended up with only three sessions as a result. I guess it only took three for me to notice, and saving him the stress of a road trip seemed more beneficial. Cannot be certain it was related, and was originally considering acupuncture, if only someone had offered this for pigs around here.
We had our boy for 8.5 years. When he was 8, as things started to change with his joints, he got around when he felt up for it, often taking turns mingling with each of our other boys to different sides of his cage (we kept them separate because they were very young and too overpowering when living in the same cage together with him). I thought this was good as it may have slowed the progression of atrophy. The regular massage therapy may have as well. He slept more and more, and would watch us and look up knowing it was time for another feeding (he was completely syringe fed as time went on due to malocclusion). We gave him low dose metacam, not all the time, but a good portion of the time to keep him comfortable, the times he seemed to need it. We also used heating pad on occasion (during colder months moreso). His bloodwork was perfect. He was a healthy boy. Not an easy thing having regular tooth filings and arthritis, but he was interested and involved. I would come home from work and go right to him. He would be resting on his pillow and before I could even put my arms to either side of him he was running right up with all his might to my heart (right where he belonged, I will add). He generally wouldn't walk much, but would use that extra bit of energy now and then. He really loved outdoors time and had always fallen asleep almost as soon as the fresh air reached him, it was so cute. He was able to have this again a couple of times shortly before he passed as the weather had just warmed up enough. Like you, I had also bunched up blankets (in the shape of a donut at one point) to allow legs to hang a bit so there was not so much pressure on the bones/joints. This is where he was when he passed. It happened quicker than I had expected, though I knew it was coming time. I was thankful that the time was decided by Someone Greater, though life completely changed. I used to watch him breathing asleep on his feeding pillow and just cherish each breath knowing our time was limited. When that breath stopped it took my breath away, I didn't want to breathe, and I still just look forward to the day we will be together again.
So I guess what I am saying is I hope and wish for Santiago to have peace and be protected from anything too hard, and to be able to take into himself his reason for being here until that day that is meant for his transition. And for you to be guided for what he needs in each moment, and to enjoy his presence, just take in these moments with him and cherish them. Relay warmth and love to your perfect boy.
We had our boy for 8.5 years. When he was 8, as things started to change with his joints, he got around when he felt up for it, often taking turns mingling with each of our other boys to different sides of his cage (we kept them separate because they were very young and too overpowering when living in the same cage together with him). I thought this was good as it may have slowed the progression of atrophy. The regular massage therapy may have as well. He slept more and more, and would watch us and look up knowing it was time for another feeding (he was completely syringe fed as time went on due to malocclusion). We gave him low dose metacam, not all the time, but a good portion of the time to keep him comfortable, the times he seemed to need it. We also used heating pad on occasion (during colder months moreso). His bloodwork was perfect. He was a healthy boy. Not an easy thing having regular tooth filings and arthritis, but he was interested and involved. I would come home from work and go right to him. He would be resting on his pillow and before I could even put my arms to either side of him he was running right up with all his might to my heart (right where he belonged, I will add). He generally wouldn't walk much, but would use that extra bit of energy now and then. He really loved outdoors time and had always fallen asleep almost as soon as the fresh air reached him, it was so cute. He was able to have this again a couple of times shortly before he passed as the weather had just warmed up enough. Like you, I had also bunched up blankets (in the shape of a donut at one point) to allow legs to hang a bit so there was not so much pressure on the bones/joints. This is where he was when he passed. It happened quicker than I had expected, though I knew it was coming time. I was thankful that the time was decided by Someone Greater, though life completely changed. I used to watch him breathing asleep on his feeding pillow and just cherish each breath knowing our time was limited. When that breath stopped it took my breath away, I didn't want to breathe, and I still just look forward to the day we will be together again.
So I guess what I am saying is I hope and wish for Santiago to have peace and be protected from anything too hard, and to be able to take into himself his reason for being here until that day that is meant for his transition. And for you to be guided for what he needs in each moment, and to enjoy his presence, just take in these moments with him and cherish them. Relay warmth and love to your perfect boy.
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