Whining when peeing - is there a topic already?

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snowflakey
E's Moriarity

Post   » Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:29 pm


Well, there are lots of threads with those keywords. Gotta week to read?

This thread looked like it would have a good discussion about stones and diet.

Here is a reference thread, too.

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hanna

Post   » Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:02 pm


Thx Snowy!

I read some GP nutrition pages (starting from the link on page 1 and then links from that page). It seems that IF Pölö has stones, I should avoid calcium and oxalic acid (Parsley and carrot bad bad again!!). On the other hand, x-ray an ultrasound didn't show any stones.

One person had GP with same symptoms, and in autopsy they found out that GP had "sand" in the kidney. That had caused infections and blood in pee. What is that illness in english?

It's midnight, I continue readin again tomorrow.

All posts are appreciated!

PS. wheeks to all the other healt and ill GP´s as well.
PS 2. How come different veggies here than in US? Didn't understand the questions.
PS3. Pölö is purring in the cage while eating hay :-)

Charybdis

Post   » Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:10 pm


I don't know about the sand in the kidney, but I remember someone's pig had stones in the ureters. I don't think the pig made it. You could do searches under those terms.

Diet restrictions depend on the TYPE of stone. Some are calcium carbonate, some are oaxalate. Others may be struvite but that is rare.

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snowflakey
E's Moriarity

Post   » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:42 pm


Would "sand" in the kidney be a kidney stone of some sort? Guessing here.

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Becky

Post   » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:02 am


After multiple bladder stones, my Cookie ended up with stones in her kidneys as well. Eventually, they moved through the ureter and lodged there. When that happens, little can be done.

From what you've said, it doesn't sound like there are stones since there was no indication on the x=ray or the ultrasound. Sludge or a UTI are more likely, I would imagine.

Hanna, I was wondering about the availability of veggies in Finland--if they would be the same as here. I suppose these days, everyone can get just about any kind of produce around.

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hanna

Post   » Sat Apr 17, 2004 2:25 pm


Thanx Becky - for the email, too! I have to take another look and THINK :-).

I don't know whether this is good or bad news: latest urine test showed that there isn't any bacteria growing. On the other hand I'm happy --> no more UTI. On the other hand I'm even more scared --> what causes the blood!?

I talked today with another vet (not our own, we were in the same Classic Riding course, she is cat/dog vet mainly) and she told that urine tests are not at all 100% trustable; there may sometimes be bacteria and another "pee shot" has not (she explaind it, I do not remember the logic).

Finally, the best news: no more wheeping or whining today :-)))).

Pölö has "always" had such symptoms, that every now and then she wheeps for a day or two when peeing and then it's gone for months. We (=us and the main vet) have thought that maybe Pölö forms tiny stones (=sludge?? I still don't know what that is in Finnish even though I understand the symptoms) and pees them out and afterwards if fine again until she pees "the sand" out again. We have tried to do the microscope analysis to catch the sand, but we never have managed to see anything else than tiny chrystals, that are normal in urine.

PS. Veggies? Imported this and that, domestic carrot, tomato, cucumber, lettuce + other sallads and herbs, red root, celery(sp), swedish turnip, broccoli, kale, cauliflower, paprika (green/sweet pepper). Not that much :-(.

PS 2. Pölö when she was "young"
http://www.marsuyhdistys.net/galleria/marsusormi.jpg

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hanna

Post   » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:06 pm


...still no whining :-).

What about interstitial cystisis? Any experience?

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Becky

Post   » Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:48 pm


Chippy has had off and on crying while eliminating and passing of bloody mucus. After ruling out stones, UTI and any kind of fecal bacteria, we settled on IC for lack of any other diagnosis.

When she was spayed, my vet took a tissue sample from her bladder. It came back as chronic inflammation--probably caused by the irritation from her sludge.

Since she hasn't shown any signs of sludge in the past several months, these symptoms also have gone away, except for occasional passing of mucus.

We treated the sludge as follows:

1) subcues with LR three times a week for about 10 months, then down to twice a week, once a week and finally stopped them as her sludge decreased.

2) Meloxicam (metacam) when she displayed signs of pain and passing bloody mucus. This was to help with the bladder inflammation due to the sludge irritation.

3) Daily polyicitra

4) Diet with an appropriate Ca:Ph ratio.

Think of sludge like this. It's bits and pieces of calcium that are bigger than the normal chalky residue pigs normally pass, but smaller than actual stones.

When Cookie passed major sludge after her blockage, it looked like gravel.

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hanna

Post   » Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:45 pm


Good evening again. I think there is a connection: when Pölö has drinked or eaten cucumber/lettuce etc and then pees, she doesn't wheep. Then, if she "just pees", there may be some whining. What evr causes the pain doesn't seem to last long, as she starts purring straigth away when I pet her. On the other hand, she is quite complaining piggy. If something is BADLY WRONG (like no hay -or at least good enough hay-, or bad food, or forced to be on lap, cuddled or something alike bad-bad things that may happen to poor mistreated Pölö), she complains, groans and moans.

BTW, I have now kept black fabric in her floor-WC. I can not see anything solid in the pee, not wet nor when it has dried. One spot has white chalk, but so little that I can not scrape it. The area is just a bit more grey.

She has never passed visible blood, it has only been seen it urinalysis.

Now I have to confess again how stupid I am.

What is:
* subcues -with LR??
* polyicitra ( a med??)
* critical care (med??)

And about Ca:Ph rate: it is said it should be "overall ratio of between 1.5:1 and 2:1 (calcium to phosphorus) " --> calcium more than Phosphorus. What does it mean?

1. Average per day (or week or...)? For example such Ca:Ph rate could be if I gave
50% of "0.5:1 -- Peppers,Red" plus
50% of "1.5:1 -- Purslane"

Together that is 2:1


2. Or does it mean I should only give foor that has it "own" ca:ph rate as described?
2.0:1 -- Spinach
2.0:1 -- Watercress
2.0:1 -- Cabbage
1.9:1 -- Endive (Escarole)
1.6:1 -- Celery
1.5:1 -- Purslane

Or does it matter?

Hoping to hear about you again tomorrow morning (my time ) :-).

Paddington

Post   » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:05 pm


Hi Hanna,

I just had similar questions re: the charts/ratio. They made up a spreadsheet in Excel. http://www.guinealynx.info/stones.html & click on the link for "Becky's Ratio Calculator).

If you have Excel, you can enter the weight of a variety of foods (listed) in grams and automatically generate a calcium:phosphorus ratio.
. If the number is around 1.33 (Ca:Ph ratio divided) then it is a good mix. Now I am going to plan his AM meals the night before & collate them so it is more time efficient.

Good Luck!

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snowflakey
E's Moriarity

Post   » Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:49 pm


hanna, I can answer some of this:
What is:
* subcues -with LR??
* polyicitra ( a med??)
* critical care (med??)
LR is Lactated Ringers Solution, it is the stuff for IV's. Subcues are subcutaneous fluids - you inject some of this solution under the skin to give extra hydration to the pig.

polycitra is a med used in treating sludge/stones.

Critical Care is a supplement made by Oxbow. It is used to help stimulate the appetite and is a good food for handfeeding a sick pig since it is formulated for herbivores.

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-JC-
I gave AGAIN, dammit!

Post   » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:10 pm


1. Average per day (or week or...)? For example such Ca:Ph rate could be if I gave
50% of "0.5:1 -- Peppers,Red" plus
50% of "1.5:1 -- Purslane"

Together that is 2:1


Mathematically, that's not right - you can't add two ratios like that.

This is hard to explain. I'm not going to try - it'll only get confusing. Basically, you have to account for absolute amounts of Ca and Ph in the food, not just the ratio. You also have to account for the quantity of each food given to the pig. Each of those two factors determines the total weight of Ca and Ph given - you can then work out those two things as a ratio. You can't just add ratios, or even average them out, because the weights differ.

Use Becky's calculator!!!

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hanna

Post   » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:35 am


Thx for clarifications. It's hard with appreviations, as english is not my native. Polycitra seems to be the name of the med including citrate - then I should find out what alike products we have here (just in case, although so far no stones or sludge has appeared).

Critical care - quess whether it's available here >:-(. Such products are awailable for cats&dogs, but not for bunnis, gp's etc.

Ringer is awailable here, too :-).

About ca:ph, true, my tired midnight misthinking (100mg of red pepper and purslane gives 50/100 plus 150/100 --> 200/200 --> ratio 1:1). Beckys calcultor is great! So the main idea is to keep daily ration in above 1,33. Is 2:1 the maximum?

We go to see the vet today afternoon. I'll post again this evening.

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hanna

Post   » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:01 pm


According to all test results Pölö is now healthy pig. She had proper ultrasound again, her pee was looked under microscope and tested. Nothing else but the pee was a bit "cloudy", far below the level that still might be concired as normal. She also has stopped whining.

We keep giving her food on good ca:ph ratio and ensure she has enough liquid (more cucumber days :-p).

Strange :-o.

Paddington

Post   » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:36 pm


Yes definitely strange Hanna. Maybe it would be a good idea to try to use white towels as her bedding for a week or so to make sure no blood shows up in her urine & ensure this wasn't the beginnings of a UTI? I think if I had those in the beginning I might have caught the stone/UTI much earlier with Paddington, b/c his blood was still minimal even though I don't feel that it was that early stage. Just a thought. Hope it helps & I'm so glad your pig seems to be feeling better. Must be a big relief for you!

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