URGENT-CA-PHS Shelter (Bay Area)

Post Reply
nastybreeder

Post   » Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:14 pm


My animals have good quality feed, water and bedding. Their barn is safe from predatory animals of all sorts. They have air conditioning in the summer although my own house does not. They have heat in the winter, actually my own house has that too. They all have cavy companions to hang around with. They aren´t handled excessively although many come to the front of the cage to get their heads scratched and take carrots out my hand.

Obviously I have a different perspective on "responsible" than a "rescuer" would. I do agree with the husbandry aspects she mentions. Pretty much seems like she thinks a responsible breeder is one who doesn´t breed. LOL

My definition of responsible would include assuring the animals quality of life at all times. This includes recognizing when the animal has no hope of recovery and having the guts to quickly put it out of its misery. In the same vein I think anyone that spays or neuters a cavy is inflicting needless pain on an animal. I´m appalled at anyone that would recommend that. Buy another cage,for crying out loud! Ranks right up there with people who declaw their cats. I´m hoping there´s a special ring of hell set aside just for them.

I chose the label nastybreeder with my tongue firmly in my cheek and to beat the rest of y´all to it. Miss Smarty Pants has already displayed her label tonight. How, ´bout you Lynx? Are you really the Heartless Dictator? So far you seem one of the most reasonable....

User avatar
Ciaytee
Almost Inbred

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:09 am


What with the comments about eating pigs and calling us unreasonable, it´s fairly obvious you´d much rather bait us than respond to any actual points we bring up.

So point blank. Do you or do you not recognize that, in general, animal overpopulation is a problem?

You´ve changed your tune from thinking death is the appropriate action for an ...unfortunate but not quite fatal experience... to only when ...recognizing when the animal has no hope of recovery...

Which is it? Am I cruel for not putting my St.John down 2 years ago when he had grand mal seizures the first 2 months of his life? Am I a bitch for not euthanizing Al when he had to endure painful, nightly cleansing sessions for 2 weeks when he had an abscess?

I know very little about pig medicine, but isn´t colic the same thing as bloat? Doesn´t a little Reglan usually fix that right up? Jeez. If we all thought like you, half the pigs on this board would be dead now instead of living out their happy little lives.

And speaking of happy little lives, I wonder if Pinta´s neutered boars--who live free-range, have the run of the house, and spend ample play time outside with her sows--are markedly unhappier than your intact boars who are stuck in cages, day in and day out.

I think the real difference between us here is that we give the same respect to animals as we do to humans. You do not. From what you write, it´s quite apparent that you use your animals for your own enjoyment, and you measure the care you give them on a return-on-investment basis.

They don´t have air conditioning because you´re so giving and worried about their comfort. They have a/c because without it they would probably die from heat exhaustion, thus greatly diminishing your pleasure in them.

You don´t provide adequate medical care because the cost outweighs the pig´s worth. It´s a lie to claim it´s because the pig is in pain, and you don´t want it to suffer for even a short amount of time.

If you truly believed that pain felt either temporarily or for an uncertain amount of time was unacceptable in a living creature, then you´d shoot your kid in the head the first time s/he broke an arm or had a painful, undiagnosed condition.

piggypie

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:19 am


Colic is not bloat, if it were so easy to cure so many horses wouldn´t be euthanised because of colic.

User avatar
KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:27 am


I am posting before I read all of the above post in totality, so excuse me if I ask something that is already answered above. WHY am I posting in such a rush? Because I am OUTRAGED! On MANY points.

Pinta is right on target, and beat me to the punch, but I will say it anyway... "Nastybreeder" suits you to a "T!" Several of us posted for the first time on this thread after reading that a breeder eats her culls. OBVIOUSLY we were upset. How can you be so insensitive to mention that "they can be quite palatable with Shake and Bake?" That´s just mean.

Again, I agree with Pinta, that of course... DUH... my kids come first. Of course.

I for one, don´t even want to know how to "kill" my sick pet. I want to know how to get them care when they need it. WHENEVER they need it. But, I do not have to have supplies on hand to do it myself. I don´t even want to think about it. I had my beloved Taffy put down last Fall. she was suffering terribly and it was the humane thing to do in MY opinion. And it DID NOT cost $100 even for an emergency visit with treatment. I knew she was dying all the way to the vet. I guess I could have put her in a box and gone shopping. She was so sick, she wouldn´t have needed anything else.

Lynx´s "label" is very tongue-in-cheek because she is among FRIENDS who know it is not true. Yours, however, appears to be true on several fronts. Josephine has the right label... it appears that you do too.

As for Teresa being a martyr, get lost. The hell she has seen gives her the right to have any "standards" she wants. ANY. Amazing that we have found 100´s of people who qualify. She can ask for WHATEVER she wants. She gets her pigs placed or keeps trying until she does. If people get turned off in the process it´s because they weren´t willing to give the pigs the care they deserve. They want the easy way out. Those are the people who wind up leaving pigs "here and there."
Those are the pigs Teresa gets calls to take every day. As far as Teresa getting special treatment because she is "popular" that´s a crock. We all respect the work that Teresa is doing. She has many friends. She has many cavy friends. Most of those people post on ths forum. We support her work. Most of us even like her (LOL Teresa!) HOW can you NOT respect her work. She has a way with cavies. I have seen her pick up more that just a few scared, injured or traumatized pigs. They calm in her arms. She has a gift.

I hope you don´t stay on the forum long. Unlike others, I don´t enjoy this type of "debate" or conversation. Again, I think it is mean.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:13 am


I wonder if nastybreeder tried to get some pigs from Teresa? Why else?

Cecitis is not a regular veterinary term here. I easily figured out what you were referring to, but anyone can stick a suffix and a prefix together. It doesn´t make a true word. It is in none of the well-respected texts I have. What you are referring to is correctly termed colitis. Perhaps you are not in the US?

Sodium pentobarbital (euthanasia solution) does not kill an animal through muscle hypoxia. CO2 is exactly on the top of the AVMA list of inhumane and unacceptable euthanasias. Put a plastic bag on your head and see what it feels like!

You must be in some third world country (with a computer?) if your vets think prolapsed rectums should be euthanized. They are so easily treated. If you are having this problem with a lot of pups, then there is a strong possibility you are breeding animals with high propensity for this condition. It IS NOT a common cavy problem at all. Do you euthanize all pigs with abscesses and scratches since they are uncomfortable and have to go through some discomfort in the healing process?!

Euthanizing pigs with colitis is also unethical. A simple dose of Reglan does do wonders. Some Banamine works wonders as well. But you don´t believe in humane pain control, do you?

"Bloat" if in reference to GIT motility problems is very similar to colic in horses. It is treatable in both species. A lot of factors come into play, but where I live we have a very viable horse practice that does not euthanize most colics. Time and treatment are of the essence.

Spays and neuters unethical? Whoa! Certainly, then you are unaware of the many health benefits and preventions of deadly diseases that spaying and neutering gives ALL companion animals. It is a must in ferrets unless you back-breed them, lest they die. So, a few weeks of careful recuperation is too much for a lifetime without pyometra, toxemia, dystocia, cancers (up the wazoo), prostate problems, etc?

It appears you aren´t willing to give any basic care to your animals. Certainly, I even fear for the humans around you. I doubt your breeding pays for itself or your own food.

"Quality" is certainly a matter of opinion. Character is not.

User avatar
KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:27 am


Amen

piggypie

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:41 am


There is a difference between sticking a plastic bag on your head and suffocating and breathing in CO2. One is a horifying traumatic experice the other is simply drifting off to sleep.

Why do you think that so many people choose co2 for suicide? It is easy and painless, trust me I have had enough brushes with CO2 to know that it would be a nice way to go.

Of course the AVMA doesn´t consider CO2 a humane method, doesn´t make them much money does it? Unless the vet sees the animal they don´t make money. The USDA considers it humane...

What do you think Hindus feel about everyone stoping at McDonald´s Arby´s Burger King Wendy´s for a quick snack of their sacred animals? They are pretty mortified too! We have many ways of preparing cow that must make them boil under the skin, just as the thought of people eating cavies does to you. Why is it so horrible for cavy fanciers to eat their culls but it is okay for people in Peru to eat them? How about rabbit breeders? Is it okay for them to eat their culls?

It is all about perspective.

Pet overpopulation is a problem

cea2001

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:25 am


Nasty breeder - your posts are so hugely inflammatory, I can´t help thinking that you must live under a bridge somewhere, with little billygoats trip-trapping over your head...

Piggypie, in some cultures it´s considered quite ethical to eat people. Try posting that on a forum board and not getting a heated response. I don´t think anyone´s attempting to slam people for eating the animals of their choice. What´s under debate here is the care (or lack of) that this breeder has for his/her animals and the fact that he/she seems to prefer ´humane´ killing to appropriate medical treatment.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:59 am


In the same vein I think anyone that spays or neuters a cavy is inflicting needless pain on an animal. That´s a pretty silly thing to say. Several of us have had our female cavies with ovarian cysts spayed. It makes a remarkable difference in their quality of life. You should take a look at the pic of those 2 1/2" in diameter cysts that were pulled from a pig recently on the reference forum. That would be like taking a couple basketballs from your abdomen.

As for being a dictator, it is inappropriate to use this forum to pick on Teresa. And in doing so, you´ve opened yourselves up to personal criticism. This forum is basically here to share information, have fun and occasionally debate ideas. You have the ability to pull it from personal criticism to debate.

People who have pointed out your lack of addressing some of the issues and questions brought up are right on. I suggest you instead start your own thread (Jahcqui and nastybreeder) to discuss what constitutes a good breeder and some of the issues raised.

I do feel people who get into breeding for fun but have NO medical knowledge of cavy illnesses or who have not thought out their personal responsibility for their animals and are willing to help them, have NO BUSINESS breeding. We don´t have enough information to evaluate whether the medical care you give your animals is good, adequate or totally lacking. What kind of problems have you had? What are your typical solutions? Do you have antibiotics available? When would you give them? There is alot of care that a breeder could give their animals (parasite treatment) but ruling out veterinary help soley because of cost is irresponsible. I doubt many breeders consistently go the extra mile.

pinta

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:50 am


Why is it so horrible for
cavy fanciers to eat their culls but it is okay for people in Peru to eat them?


piggypie - culture. In China dogs are eaten but I daresay a restaurant specializing in dog would not go over well in North America. And I think people might not be very accepting of dog breeders who dine on their extra puppies. In Europe they eat horses. In fact there is a restaurant in Brussels that specializes in horsemeat. Unlikely to do well in North America. In African countries bugs and larva can be bought at the market for a nice meal. Go ahead - open a larva/bug bistro in North America and see how well it fares. There´s a restaurant in Hong Kong that specializes in rats. Care to open the first North American Franchise?

nastybreeder, I am familiar with the size of the pigs eaten in South America having a few friends who like to travel and yank my chain by taking pics of themselves, knife and fork raised over roast cavy on a spit. About 1 Kg. Also have a pic (brought back by a friend´s globetrotting mother of a herd of pigs and the oven where they will eventually meet their demise. Average size. Apparently the attempt to grow them bigger has met a snag in that the locals have been cooking the bigger pigs leaving the smaller ones for breeding. Thanks for your kind offer to get me in touch for donating to meat production project. But I already have my favourite charities picked out and don´t have room on my list for yours.


This includes
recognizing when the animal has no hope of recovery and having the guts to quickly put it out of its misery. In
the same vein I think anyone that spays or neuters a cavy is inflicting needless pain on an animal.


Good thing you don´t have my pigs - you would have killed half of them. I highly doubt you have the experience or expertise to recognize when an animal has no hope of recovery. This thread has made that clear. Sounds like your "guts" is more like a choice of cost effectiveness. Treatment and diagnostics cost money. Killing them in the barn doesn´t.

You would have killed Shiraz. Skin and bones, losing weight, ribs dissolving, bones at risk of snapping. Would you have bothered to find out why? I doubt it. Well, she´s fine now. Has to be on high dose calcium supplements twice daily for life. My vet gave her a poor prognosis.

You would have killed Gemma. Massive post-op complications after a medically necessary spay. Definitely in misery. Not anymore. Probably will need to be on a hormone med for life but is happy and recovering.

You would have killed Willie, Bloom and Tiramissou. All pigs with a poor prognosis who made it because instead of killing them(the easy route) we got them treatment.

Face it - your pigs are products. Which begs the question of why you are posting on a forum where people regard their pigs as pets. Don´t you have a breeder forum to post on or was your axe so blunt you had to drag it over here for grinding?

Do you serve any purpose here other than as an irritant?
Last edited by pinta on Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jahcqui

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:52 am


I´m in agreement that guinea pigs are not people. Why would you think they are? I believe in respecting a creature for what it IS, not what you want it to be. I defer to their nature, not mine. I also believe guinea pigs have feelings, think in their own way, and communicate to humans, but not on the same level as we communicate to each other. My belief is my pigs would rather be surrounded by their own kind than by me, except for feeding time.

I once had a sow who prolapsed her uterus. I took her to the vet immediately. The vet performed an emergency spay. Two days and $800 later I got the call that my sow had died. I felt so horrible for making her go through all that pain before she passed. She deserved to have a peaceful death, not to be cut and sutured and poked and prodded and worse yet - isolated from her herd! I will never do that again. Not because of the money, but because it was inhumane.

If I know an animal is going to die, and with rodents, it is pretty easy to tell - they get a ´look´ when there is no turning back, I think it´s much more honest and loving to be responsible for it myself. Why turn them over to the hands of a stranger? Because I´m too lilly-livered to be responsible for their health? When I have an animal I know can be saved, I´d stay up day and night to do it. When I know there is something to be done, but I can´t do it, I´d take it to a vet. However, with the current dearth of cavy-trained vets, a breeder who has been around longer than a few years knows a whole lot more and most everything you need can be obtained at a feed store. In my opinion, that´s taking a whole lot more responsibility for their health than dragging them to a vet. I know a few vets who would agree.

And here´s my stance on the culling/eating/whatever practices of some breeders: TOLERANCE. Not to say I agree with it all, but there comes a time when one must realize that you have no control over others (no matter how much you want it) and there is a higher being that takes care of everything. Do what you can, but let go and let god once in a while. It frees up a lot of energy for the doing what you can part.

piggypie

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:35 pm


Perhaps letting the really sick pigs go peacefully would help the overpopulation problem? Could open up homes that are currently finacially, physically and emotionally too bogged down to accept more animals.

I guess living in a multi cultural society has made me more tolerant of others beliefs and practises than you pinta.
It is very easy for me to say "not something I want to do/eat, but it is okay that you want to do so"

I have also noticed that everyone here seems to treat Teressa in a very numinous way... interesting.

Post Reply