URGENT-CA-PHS Shelter (Bay Area)

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Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:13 am


I wonder if nastybreeder tried to get some pigs from Teresa? Why else?

Cecitis is not a regular veterinary term here. I easily figured out what you were referring to, but anyone can stick a suffix and a prefix together. It doesn´t make a true word. It is in none of the well-respected texts I have. What you are referring to is correctly termed colitis. Perhaps you are not in the US?

Sodium pentobarbital (euthanasia solution) does not kill an animal through muscle hypoxia. CO2 is exactly on the top of the AVMA list of inhumane and unacceptable euthanasias. Put a plastic bag on your head and see what it feels like!

You must be in some third world country (with a computer?) if your vets think prolapsed rectums should be euthanized. They are so easily treated. If you are having this problem with a lot of pups, then there is a strong possibility you are breeding animals with high propensity for this condition. It IS NOT a common cavy problem at all. Do you euthanize all pigs with abscesses and scratches since they are uncomfortable and have to go through some discomfort in the healing process?!

Euthanizing pigs with colitis is also unethical. A simple dose of Reglan does do wonders. Some Banamine works wonders as well. But you don´t believe in humane pain control, do you?

"Bloat" if in reference to GIT motility problems is very similar to colic in horses. It is treatable in both species. A lot of factors come into play, but where I live we have a very viable horse practice that does not euthanize most colics. Time and treatment are of the essence.

Spays and neuters unethical? Whoa! Certainly, then you are unaware of the many health benefits and preventions of deadly diseases that spaying and neutering gives ALL companion animals. It is a must in ferrets unless you back-breed them, lest they die. So, a few weeks of careful recuperation is too much for a lifetime without pyometra, toxemia, dystocia, cancers (up the wazoo), prostate problems, etc?

It appears you aren´t willing to give any basic care to your animals. Certainly, I even fear for the humans around you. I doubt your breeding pays for itself or your own food.

"Quality" is certainly a matter of opinion. Character is not.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 1:27 am


Amen

piggypie

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:41 am


There is a difference between sticking a plastic bag on your head and suffocating and breathing in CO2. One is a horifying traumatic experice the other is simply drifting off to sleep.

Why do you think that so many people choose co2 for suicide? It is easy and painless, trust me I have had enough brushes with CO2 to know that it would be a nice way to go.

Of course the AVMA doesn´t consider CO2 a humane method, doesn´t make them much money does it? Unless the vet sees the animal they don´t make money. The USDA considers it humane...

What do you think Hindus feel about everyone stoping at McDonald´s Arby´s Burger King Wendy´s for a quick snack of their sacred animals? They are pretty mortified too! We have many ways of preparing cow that must make them boil under the skin, just as the thought of people eating cavies does to you. Why is it so horrible for cavy fanciers to eat their culls but it is okay for people in Peru to eat them? How about rabbit breeders? Is it okay for them to eat their culls?

It is all about perspective.

Pet overpopulation is a problem

cea2001

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:25 am


Nasty breeder - your posts are so hugely inflammatory, I can´t help thinking that you must live under a bridge somewhere, with little billygoats trip-trapping over your head...

Piggypie, in some cultures it´s considered quite ethical to eat people. Try posting that on a forum board and not getting a heated response. I don´t think anyone´s attempting to slam people for eating the animals of their choice. What´s under debate here is the care (or lack of) that this breeder has for his/her animals and the fact that he/she seems to prefer ´humane´ killing to appropriate medical treatment.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:59 am


In the same vein I think anyone that spays or neuters a cavy is inflicting needless pain on an animal. That´s a pretty silly thing to say. Several of us have had our female cavies with ovarian cysts spayed. It makes a remarkable difference in their quality of life. You should take a look at the pic of those 2 1/2" in diameter cysts that were pulled from a pig recently on the reference forum. That would be like taking a couple basketballs from your abdomen.

As for being a dictator, it is inappropriate to use this forum to pick on Teresa. And in doing so, you´ve opened yourselves up to personal criticism. This forum is basically here to share information, have fun and occasionally debate ideas. You have the ability to pull it from personal criticism to debate.

People who have pointed out your lack of addressing some of the issues and questions brought up are right on. I suggest you instead start your own thread (Jahcqui and nastybreeder) to discuss what constitutes a good breeder and some of the issues raised.

I do feel people who get into breeding for fun but have NO medical knowledge of cavy illnesses or who have not thought out their personal responsibility for their animals and are willing to help them, have NO BUSINESS breeding. We don´t have enough information to evaluate whether the medical care you give your animals is good, adequate or totally lacking. What kind of problems have you had? What are your typical solutions? Do you have antibiotics available? When would you give them? There is alot of care that a breeder could give their animals (parasite treatment) but ruling out veterinary help soley because of cost is irresponsible. I doubt many breeders consistently go the extra mile.

pinta

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:50 am


Why is it so horrible for
cavy fanciers to eat their culls but it is okay for people in Peru to eat them?


piggypie - culture. In China dogs are eaten but I daresay a restaurant specializing in dog would not go over well in North America. And I think people might not be very accepting of dog breeders who dine on their extra puppies. In Europe they eat horses. In fact there is a restaurant in Brussels that specializes in horsemeat. Unlikely to do well in North America. In African countries bugs and larva can be bought at the market for a nice meal. Go ahead - open a larva/bug bistro in North America and see how well it fares. There´s a restaurant in Hong Kong that specializes in rats. Care to open the first North American Franchise?

nastybreeder, I am familiar with the size of the pigs eaten in South America having a few friends who like to travel and yank my chain by taking pics of themselves, knife and fork raised over roast cavy on a spit. About 1 Kg. Also have a pic (brought back by a friend´s globetrotting mother of a herd of pigs and the oven where they will eventually meet their demise. Average size. Apparently the attempt to grow them bigger has met a snag in that the locals have been cooking the bigger pigs leaving the smaller ones for breeding. Thanks for your kind offer to get me in touch for donating to meat production project. But I already have my favourite charities picked out and don´t have room on my list for yours.


This includes
recognizing when the animal has no hope of recovery and having the guts to quickly put it out of its misery. In
the same vein I think anyone that spays or neuters a cavy is inflicting needless pain on an animal.


Good thing you don´t have my pigs - you would have killed half of them. I highly doubt you have the experience or expertise to recognize when an animal has no hope of recovery. This thread has made that clear. Sounds like your "guts" is more like a choice of cost effectiveness. Treatment and diagnostics cost money. Killing them in the barn doesn´t.

You would have killed Shiraz. Skin and bones, losing weight, ribs dissolving, bones at risk of snapping. Would you have bothered to find out why? I doubt it. Well, she´s fine now. Has to be on high dose calcium supplements twice daily for life. My vet gave her a poor prognosis.

You would have killed Gemma. Massive post-op complications after a medically necessary spay. Definitely in misery. Not anymore. Probably will need to be on a hormone med for life but is happy and recovering.

You would have killed Willie, Bloom and Tiramissou. All pigs with a poor prognosis who made it because instead of killing them(the easy route) we got them treatment.

Face it - your pigs are products. Which begs the question of why you are posting on a forum where people regard their pigs as pets. Don´t you have a breeder forum to post on or was your axe so blunt you had to drag it over here for grinding?

Do you serve any purpose here other than as an irritant?
Last edited by pinta on Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jahcqui

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:52 am


I´m in agreement that guinea pigs are not people. Why would you think they are? I believe in respecting a creature for what it IS, not what you want it to be. I defer to their nature, not mine. I also believe guinea pigs have feelings, think in their own way, and communicate to humans, but not on the same level as we communicate to each other. My belief is my pigs would rather be surrounded by their own kind than by me, except for feeding time.

I once had a sow who prolapsed her uterus. I took her to the vet immediately. The vet performed an emergency spay. Two days and $800 later I got the call that my sow had died. I felt so horrible for making her go through all that pain before she passed. She deserved to have a peaceful death, not to be cut and sutured and poked and prodded and worse yet - isolated from her herd! I will never do that again. Not because of the money, but because it was inhumane.

If I know an animal is going to die, and with rodents, it is pretty easy to tell - they get a ´look´ when there is no turning back, I think it´s much more honest and loving to be responsible for it myself. Why turn them over to the hands of a stranger? Because I´m too lilly-livered to be responsible for their health? When I have an animal I know can be saved, I´d stay up day and night to do it. When I know there is something to be done, but I can´t do it, I´d take it to a vet. However, with the current dearth of cavy-trained vets, a breeder who has been around longer than a few years knows a whole lot more and most everything you need can be obtained at a feed store. In my opinion, that´s taking a whole lot more responsibility for their health than dragging them to a vet. I know a few vets who would agree.

And here´s my stance on the culling/eating/whatever practices of some breeders: TOLERANCE. Not to say I agree with it all, but there comes a time when one must realize that you have no control over others (no matter how much you want it) and there is a higher being that takes care of everything. Do what you can, but let go and let god once in a while. It frees up a lot of energy for the doing what you can part.

piggypie

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:35 pm


Perhaps letting the really sick pigs go peacefully would help the overpopulation problem? Could open up homes that are currently finacially, physically and emotionally too bogged down to accept more animals.

I guess living in a multi cultural society has made me more tolerant of others beliefs and practises than you pinta.
It is very easy for me to say "not something I want to do/eat, but it is okay that you want to do so"

I have also noticed that everyone here seems to treat Teressa in a very numinous way... interesting.

purrie

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:53 pm


Nastybreeder, I don´t know what kind of vet you have that would charge $100 to put a pig to sleep. Leo had liver cancer, and when the time came, there was no stress. Except for the shot, he stayed in my arms the whole time. He was not anxious or frightened. I think it is worse to stick them in a box and gas them where they are not comforted by companions, human or cavy.

It cost $20.

Numen - guiding spirit or deity. Hmmm... maybe Teresa´s gift with cavies could be described this way. I don´t know, I´ve never met her.

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Sunny

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:06 pm


Numinous - mystical, spiritual, magical... yep, that´s Teresa. You hit the nail right on the head piggiepie.

I have a lot more to add to that list but you people wouldn´t appreciate it.

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lisam

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:37 pm


This thread has been very enlightening. I knew that snake people used CO2 to kill the mice for their snakes, but had no idea that guinea pig breeders used it also.

I would not be able to do it. It is not in my nature to take a life. I can give the go-ahead, and be there, and hold my friend in my arms, but could not do the actual deed. I will gladly pay a vet hundreds of dollars to do so (and with my two beloved horses, it came to hundreds of dollars). But not until I was sure that there was not one last shred of hope that the animal could live a decent life.

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Cordelia
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:48 pm


Teresa,

Put your damn magical wand down! We are all under your spell apparently....or it could just be that we all have a great respect for Teresa and what she has done for many cavies in this world.

pinta

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:52 pm


I´m in agreement that guinea pigs are not people. Why would you think they are?

Did I miss something? Where did anyone say guinea pigs are people?

I guess living in a multi cultural society has made me more tolerant of others beliefs and practises than you
pinta.
It is very easy for me to say "not something I want to do/eat, but it is okay that you want to do so"


What makes you think I don´t live in a multicultural society? Vancouver is extremely multicultural. In many areas caucasians are the minority and English is a second language. Regardless, this is still North America and cultural practises that are acceptable in other countries are not acceptable here. This is not my personal dictum. It is an observation borne out by a lack of larva bistros and horsemeat restaurants. They don´t sell dog meat in Chinatown. I doubt you could even open a rat restaurant here even if you wanted to - health inspectors wouldn´t allow it.

What makes you think I am intolerant of others´ beliefs and customs? Did I say anywhere that I did? I have no problem with people eating cavies in South America. No problem with people eating insects(I have an insect recipe book) or dogs if that is a cultural tradition in their society (although a big problem in China is the inhumane way the dogs are treated before slaughter). I don´t think a cavy judge eating her culls has anything to do with beliefs and customs. I think it shows that she regards these animals as nothing more than livestock. Is she judging the amount of meat on them? I wonder if she´d eat kittens if she was a cat judge?


Perhaps letting the really sick pigs go peacefully would help the overpopulation problem?

Why not just kill every pig when they reach 5 years of age. That would help the overpopulation problem too. This is an illogical statement. My sick pigs made it through their illnesses and continued to live a good life. You are saying I should have just killed them to make room for more pigs?

a breeder who has been
around longer than a few years knows a whole lot more and most everything you need can be obtained at a
feed store.


Yeah, I´ve seen some of the advice longtime breeders have. Antibiotics in the water. Precautionary dosing with Tetracycline in the water. No point doing ultrasound or xrays for heart problems because there is no treatment.

For the most part breeder cavy health advice is dodgy at best. Vets are learning more and more and sharing the information with the intention of expanding the longevity of their patients. Can breeders say the same? Yeah, there are crappy vets and there are crappy breeders. But even the crappy vets have access to the latest advances in medical treatment. Breeders don´t.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:14 pm


However, with the current dearth of cavy-trained vets, a breeder who has been around longer than a few years knows a whole lot more and most everything you need can be obtained at a feed store.

Tell me, what cavy safe antibiotics can you get at a feed store?

I thought Pinta hit the nail on the head with her comments:
Face it - your pigs are products. Which begs the question of why you are posting on a forum where people regard their pigs as pets. Don´t you have a breeder forum to post on or was your axe so blunt you had to drag it over here for grinding?

Do you serve any purpose here other than as an irritant?


And Jahcque, as to your advocating TOLERANCE of " the culling/eating/whatever practices of some breeders" -- it is these very things which speak volumes on who these breeders really are and how they view their "product". They have NO RESPECT FOR LIFE.

This is indeed a pet oriented board. We do the best we can to share what we know and encourage medical intervention when needed. It would appear you do not belong here if you can support and TOLERATE the culling/eating practices of some breeders.

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Ciaytee
Almost Inbred

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:30 pm


God knows I love ya, Lynx, but I´m not as offended by the eating of guinea pigs as you and others are. I don´t believe someone who does eat them necessarily has no respect for life. And I think it´s a tishbit hypocritical to slam someone for eating a pig while we eat other animals. Only vegans are really in the position to make that claim. But that´s really a separate issue from adding to the pig population.

I also don´t think we should lump Jahcqui in with NB. From what they´ve written, I don´t believe J is like NB at all. Though I do disagree with J´s breeding, I really don´t think she´s unethical, heartless, and hellbound. I get the feeling she does have respect for and really cares about her pigs--even the ´stock´. I just think her expression of that is detrimental, on the whole. I hope this doesn´t sound condescending, because I don´t intend it to be, but I just think J is a little naive when it comes to the cycle of pig breeding and buying. But I also think one day she´ll come around, and then she´ll run a kickass rescue. Besides the breeding, I have no issue with her. And from the little she´s posted here, I even kinda like her.

NB is another story. From his/her posts, it´s very apparent that s/he believes animals are here solely for human enjoyment and consumption and doesn´t believe we owe them anything. This person has a serious character flaw.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:51 pm


It really doesn´t have to do so much with the eating of a guinea pig as what it says about that breeder´s attitude toward them. I doubt there are any cultural aspects (here), as Pinta pointed out. And I doubt a cavy pet owner would eat a guinea pig the same as I doubt a dog or cat owner would eat a dog or cat.

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Ciaytee
Almost Inbred

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:12 pm


I can see that. But I think there´s another side to it. When I was a kid, my grandparents bred and raised chickens for food. But at the same time, Granny also had some fighting chickens that she considered pets. She didn´t take them out on the fighting chicken circuit (if there is one); she just doted on them. Though I couldn´t do it, I know that some people can emotionally detach themselves and think of one animal as a pet while it´s brother is food.

But, there´s really not a pet chicken population problem, so there my analogy falls flat. Breeding pigs would be fine if there weren´t such an overabundance of homeless ones already. When so many pets are bought on impulse, kept in deplorable conditions, then turned over to shelters and rescues (if they´re not ´set free´ or killed for space purposes), no one really has any business adding more pets to the mix.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:26 pm


Quote:
_______________________________________________________________________

You´d have to awfully hungry to eat cavy. There just isn´t much meat on ´em. Kinda like buffalo chicken wings. And like crab legs they´d be an awful lot of work to clean for the return you´d get on them. Still, I understand with shake-n-bake they can be quite palatable.
_____________________________________________________________________


Nastybreeders Shake-n-Bake comment was only about being intentionally mean. Period.

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Ciaytee
Almost Inbred

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:49 pm


You´re absolutely correct. NB made no valid or logical points at all and was only interested in baiting us and twisting our knickers.

Don´t you really wish E was here to knock it around a while?

piggypie

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:04 pm


pinta I never said you were intolerant, I said I was more tolerant than you

Do you think the reason there isn´t an overabundance of pet chickens is because we eat them?

You might be suprised at how often dog and cat are served at chinese restaurants under the name of chicken or pork... I know a chain of restaurants that were shut down because of it.
Last edited by piggypie on Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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