URGENT-CA-PHS Shelter (Bay Area)

Post Reply
pinta

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:11 pm


there is a higher being that takes care of everything

This comment from Jachqui smacks of a total abdication of responsibility. If there were a higher being taking care of things I´m pretty sure they would be doing a better job of it. In my opinion, the sorry mess the human race is in is solely our own responsibility.

Furthermore, I consider the despicable lack of concern for the welfare of animals shown by the general populace to be at least in part inspired by such statements as those found in the Old Testament to the effect that humans were given dominion over animals. Unfortunately, far too many Christians have interpreted this "word of God" to mean they can exploit animals as they wish, regardless of how they are treated.

And for the record I don´t eat any kind of animals, from cavies to cows. - Pigpal

User avatar
KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:43 pm


Where is E?

nastybreeder

Post   » Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:53 pm


Oh you guys are tooooo funny! You think someone in the third world would have cavies for pets much less take them to the vet? hehehehe you crack me up.

Here´s some statistics> Pigs I had to put down this year 3. Apparently healthy pigs I have wished a cheery good night to and found dead in their cage the next morning: probably about 15 this year. Pigs I have ever had at my house in 15 years of breeding with a prolapsed rectum: 1 a 2-day old boar. Pigs in 15 years of breeding that have had a prolapsed uterus: 0. Pigs I have ever eaten, barbecued, stewed or otherwise: big fat 0. Breeders I personally know that have ever eaten pigs: also 0.(And why would you, when ya got perfectly tasty cows laying around?). Bunnies I have personally eaten over the course of my life: a couple. How much dog I´ve possibly eaten at a Chinese restaurant: who knows. Bugs and bug parts I´ve eaten during the course of my life: quite a few....I´m partial to hot dogs and riding my bike along river bike paths.

Would I put down a pig with an abscess or other minor skin irritation? Well, of course not. Don´t be ridiculous. I´d lance and drain the abscess and be done with it. I don´t hold with culling animals that get abscesses, though some breeders do. I just don´t find them to be that contagious.

Egads, y´all make it sound like this is an everyday event. T´aint so. I know it´s hard to put an animal down but if you are keeping it alive for your own emotional reasons you´re just as bad as someone who clunks mismarks or excess boars (something else I don´t do). I spent $500 on one of my cats last month. In the end I brought her home to die. Should have had her euthed at the vets on that Sat. but couldn´t bring myself to do it. Needed a couple more days to say goodbye. Pure selfishness on my part and she suffered for it. Did I ultimately use a vet to help her out. Sure did. Came to the house and she died on her couch.

You wanna spay a sow that has a medical condtion, fine. But, really, how often is it medically necessary? How often are they subjected to needless surgery when another cage would have prevented babies just as well? In my experience dystocia and toxemia are pregnancy related issues. Keep her in a separate cage and end of the problem. Typically my sows retire around 3 or 4 years of age. Never had one yet with ovarian cysts.
No boars with prostate problems either. Got a couple boars running around about 5 or 6 years old now. Look better than ever.

You seem to think breeders don´t have pet pigs. T´aint true I tell ya. I have a beige named Bailey that´s largely a floor boar. Has a lady in his cage and a lot of the time would prefer to run the floor. He´s quite a character. His name´s expanded to "Bill Bailey won´t you please come home". (Y´all are probably too young to remember that song!) Hops in and out of his cage pretty much as he pleases. Another, lilac, is Roy Roamer for obvious reasons. Roy´s been a bachelor for quite a while. Nanny´s the little boars til its time for them to move on.

Drugs you can get at a well stocked feed or vet supply: tetracycline, sulfa products, albon,biosol. Also 1cc syringes handy for feeding babies and dispensing Revolution to all. Ivermectin, revolution, normal saline, lactated ringers,levamasole, to name a few, can be had at reasonable prices. Many of these are also available via catalog if you live in an urban area without such amenities as a vet supply place. I don´t hold with antibiotics much myself. I think they´re grossly overused in humans as well as other animals. I almost never use them on myself. My experience with the cavies is it´s a race whether the cure´s worse than the disease. Can you pump yogurt into them fast enough to counteract the detrimental effects of antibiotics on their guts?

So why am I here? Morbid curiosity I guess. I´m wondering how y´all settled on cavies as your sacred cow instead of something else. I truly want to find out if you´re all vegans, non-leather wearing, non-jello eating folk. Do all rescuers belong to PETA? What do you do when you´re not breeder-bashing?

Do I produce some pigs? Yeah, I do. I would love it if everyone was experiencing the joy of watching a cavy or several ram around and popcorn like crazy. Nothing can lift your heart more than that sight. I´m trying to make it easier for new owners. I refuse to feel bad about it.

purrie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:25 am


What is your point in posting here?

Jahcqui

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 3:16 am


I think it was Ricky who made the anthropomorphist statement.

I´m not abdicating responsibility, I´m renouncing the idea that I have control of everything. Personally, I prefer to spend my energy elsewhere than 1) trying to find people who eat cavies and 2) trying to persuade them to stop. I agree with Ciaytee that vegans should be the only ones doing that.

As far as nastybreeder, I think she was tongue-in-cheek making the point that eating cavies in North America is not that common, playing up the fact that it would be a total pain. I took it as humor, but maybe I´m more used to that kind of thing. Perhaps I´ve seen too many Tarentino-esque films? I think the intended response was "Oh, that makes a bit of sense! It would be a silly thing for someone to try and MOST people aren´t that obsessively dedicated to killing their own food." Geesh, I won´t even eat meat with bones, so I am NO ONE to bash someone honest enough to kill and prepare their own food. I think our society has lost a lot of perspective now that it´s become too busy to know where and how their food makes it to the table. I think we are a lot less healthy as a result too, since we LET manufacturers put lots of junk into our food.

My pigs are creatures, not products. Although, I could name a sow "Production" for fun and freak people out by talking about my "Production" line of pigs. (I know, I know, you guys don´t think that´s funny. It´s late for me. Well, even when fully rested the darker side of my sense of humor takes over when naming pigs - most comedy does involve incongruity though.)

I digress. But seriously, this products comment - do you guys think the majority of breeders make money from selling pigs? We have to provide the same daily care any pig owner does. Some of us have been inventive at finding ways to cut costs, but so have some of you. Do you think that because we breed, we automatically decide to starve our pigs and keep them on dirt? I don´t understand where this ´product´ comment comes from? Because I sell a pig in any circumstance, it´s a product? Can´t I share the joy of a sweet creature with another human being? Would you rather I give them away? I don´t think so, that would make them ´throwaways´, wouldn´t it? I guess my brain is a product too, since I sell it´s services hourly?

Kick ass rescuer! Thanks! Tee hee! I tried that - I failed miserably. I´m just not strict enough and not immune to liars, traitors and theives, so I decided to keep breeding. (And I´m not talking about Teresa!)

pinta

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:36 am


pinta I never said you were intolerant, I said I was more tolerant than you

Pretty broad assumption considering you don´t know me from Adam. On what basis do you make this claim?

Do you think the reason there isn´t an overabundance of
pet chickens is because we eat them?


Aside from the fact this statement makes no sense there is probably not an overabundance of pet chickens because many if not most urban areas(greatest population base) are not zoned for livestock or farm animals.

You might be suprised at how often dog and cat are
served at chinese restaurants under the name of chicken
or pork... I know a chain of restaurants that were shut
down because of it.


Proving my point that the practise is not culturally acceptable in North America. No, not surprised at all but this is a poor argument anyway. A wonton restaurant in China was closed down and the owners imprisoned when it was discovered that the meat in the wontons came from cadavers in the local funeral parlour. Just goes to show you that if something is not culturally acceptable, actions will be taken to put an end to it in China or North America(assuming that is your locale).


nastybreeder - 15 dead pigs in one year? Seems high to me. Out of how many? You really didn´t notice any previous symptoms? What kind of regimen do you have for monitoring their health?

Don´t believe in antibiotics? Maybe that´s why you had 15 dead pigs. Yogurt as a probiotioc? Aren´t you aware that a poop from a healthy pig is superior? Hmmm - I´ve had my pigs on ABs many a time and they´ve done fine. Just between you and me, sometimes I don´t even bother with a probiotic. Maybe you are using the wrong AB? You mentioned Tetracycline - not a great choice. I think the Albon can be troublesome too. Revolution does not have a good rep.......

I know it´s hard to put an animal down but if
you are keeping it alive for your own emotional reasons


No, actually I´m keeping them alive so I can treat them enabling them to resume a happy, painfree life.

You wanna spay a sow that has a medical condtion, fine. But, really, how often is it medically necessary?

Pyometra, ovarian tumours and cysts. Medical conditions. Every sow I have had spayed has been for necessary medical reasons.

Never had one yet with ovarian
cysts.


How would you know if you don´t take them to the vets for diagnostics? If indeed you have come up with a strain of cavies that are immune to ovarian cysts the veterinary community would probably want to hear about it. It would be nothing short of a miracle.

My experience with the cavies is it´s a race whether the cure´s worse than the disease.

My experience is that with proper observation and treatment I can pull a pig through most ailments. The only pigs that were healthy the night before and dead the next day that I have had were 2 - in over 25 years of pigs. Both heart attacks. Every other pig I have known that was ill, I have seen signs soon enough to start treatment. In the vast majority of cases I have been able to pull them through. In several cases my vet has diagnosed ailments previously unrecognized in guinea pigs - only because I took the time to observe and neither I or my vet gave up. When I learn something new - I pass the knowledge along.

You seem to be the typical "nasty breeder". Your pigs appear to be products despite the names you bestow on them. Your post demonstrates how little you know about treating medical conditions in cavies and how little interest you have in furthering your knowledge. Most pet oeners would actively seek appropriate medical care and would educate themselves as to which drugs/treatmnents are inappropriate.

a breeder who has been
around longer than a few years knows a whole lot more and most everything you need can be obtained at a
feed store.


Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

I´ve educated many vets in my practice on cavies.

Please stop.
Last edited by pinta on Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

cea2001

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 9:31 am


"I´m just not strict enough and not immune to liars, traitors and theives, so I decided to keep breeding. "

So then you can conveniently turn a blind eye as to where the pigs that you produce end up.

Don´t come to a rescue friendly board and expect a supportive response.

And nasty breeder - I really do hope you´re a troll. The alternative is just too depressing to contemplate.

purrie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:03 am


Jahcqui and nastybreeder, you still haven´t answered my question. It really is a very simple one.

piggypie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:05 pm


I think nasty breeder did answer your question, even before you asked it. Read back

purrie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:14 pm


Piggypie, I did read that, and I am still left wondering if that is truly the most accurate (honest?) answer. nastybreeder is spending an awful lot of energy here justifying her practices to people who dislike/disagree with everything she stands for regarding cavies. I think that goes deeper then simple "morbid curiosity".
Last edited by purrie on Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:25 pm


You mean So why am I here? Morbid curiosity I guess. I´m wondering how y´all settled on cavies as your sacred cow instead of something else. I truly want to find out if you´re all vegans, non-leather wearing, non-jello eating folk. Do all rescuers belong to PETA? What do you do when you´re not breeder-bashing?


I don´t think that constitutes an answer either. This is not a rescue board. This is a cavy health board. What do you expect us to do except talk about our cavies and learn what we can about their health? And what´s this muck about sacred cows? Hey, these are our pets!! And what do you sell? Cavies to people who want to be pet owners, for cryin out loud. You can´t have it both ways.

You can read without posting. I suggest you do so.

ZurgNBuzz

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:07 pm


Wow, I read this thread, and was able to swallow all the horrible things being said, but I just couldn´t sit by anymore after reading Pinta´s post.

"Furthermore, I consider the despicable lack of concern for the welfare of animals shown by the general populace to be at least in part inspired by such statements as those found in the Old Testament to the effect that humans were given dominion over animals. Unfortunately, far too many Christians have interpreted this "word of God" to mean they can exploit animals as they wish, regardless of how they are treated."

What a slap in the face to myself, my family, and all Christians. That scripture has been grossly misinterpretted by yourself and anyone else who may have used that scripture as an excuse to mistreat or exploit their animals. I have never heard anyone use that scripture as an excuse, but if someone has then they have pulled a scripture to justify a wrong, and must not be a true Christian. Yes, we were given dominion over animals, to care for them the best we possibly can while in our care. If we were not given dominion, we could not have them as pets to begin with and this wouldn´t be an issue. We would be something elses "pets". Please, I didn´t see any Christian attack you on this board, and if you were referring to Jahcqui´s post about there being a higher being looking out for them, do you not believe so? Maybe not, but I do. No, God does not step in at every thing, but he knows it´s happening, why else would there be people that are rescuing the poor neglected and mistreated animals all over the world? I don´t know how many other Christians adopted from this last Hollister rescue, but I know for a fact, that there would not have been the extra 4 adopted at the KS drop if not for Christians.

Sorry, I just couldn´t swallow that harsh statement. I´m sorry my first post to this board couldn´t have been friendlier.

*must have skimmed the beginning of Pinta´s post. Yes, it is the human races fault that were are in the position we are in. God never said he´d keep us out of trouble. We do that ourselves.
Last edited by ZurgNBuzz on Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nastybreeder

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:21 pm


Excellent post zurgnbuzz. Very eloquent and well reasoned.

User avatar
Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:56 pm


Whatever Pinta´s personal theories (I´m sure she´s not the only one to come up with that particular one), it still comes back to why are you here?

Sit back and take a look through the eyes of a pet owner. These posts have all digressed but it still seems plain to me you only showed up to give Teresa a hard time (at least Jacque did). Your criticism doesn´t belong on public boards but instead in snarly emails to fellow complainers.

As to your comments regarding zurgnbuzz post being eloquent and well reasoned, I think not.

How about answering Purrie´s question concerning WHAT is your point in posting?

piggypie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 3:47 pm


pinta I have only your posts to judge whether I am more tolerant than you or not.

ZurgNBuzz

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 3:58 pm


No problem Lynx, I felt personally attacked on a matter that has no back bone. As I said, I didn´t post on the other things, that while I do not agree with them, were not an attack on me or my morals. And that is fine, since I´m not wanted here, simply because I stated my opinion (which was not hateful, just some points brought to the table) that´s fine. I am not a breeder. I am a Christian, and felt that bashing of a scripture and a group that had not even brought that scripture into this arguement, was not needed. If you think it wasn´t well reasoned, so be it. But neither was Pinta´s. I don´t see you chasing her away.

How did I show up to give Teresa a hard time?????? I adopted two of the Hollister pigs from this trip! My only point was that in that scripture, it is being said to care for the animals that are in your care. That you have dominion over. Sheesh. No where did I say Teresa´s efforts were wrong, or that breeders were in the right. I don´t disagree with breeding, generally, but in the case of cavies, where the population can boom so quickly, I do believe there is no NEED of breeders. I AGREE with you guys. Now, I won´t say I disagree with breeding, Because in some animals it´s not such a problem. I.E. horses.
I think your post was hasty, and you made assumptions about me that should not have been made.

I came to this site from the CG site, same as a lot of people I´m sure, to learn as much as I can about my cavies. I read this post as I had adopted two of the girls, and if you noticed have said nothing on the other points that others have handled well on their own. Just because NastyBreeder made a nice comment to my post, doesn´t mean I agree with s/he either. Don´t lump me in that group. I didn´t ask for his/her reply to my post. I just felt personally attacked in a round about way.

So, my point in posting was to make a point. I said my point, and would have left well enough alone, but then I had to respond to you. So, how about an answer for me? What was so wrong with my post, that wasn´t wrong with other posts? What did I imply that made you jump to so many conclusions?

purrie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:10 pm


ZurgNBuzz, I too have known "Christians" who have used the scripture to say that we are allowed to treat animals as property rather than living creatures. Perhaps the issue with that statement is that some people who call themselves Christians do not truly act in a Christ-like manner, in this particular case toward animals. I think you yourself probably know people who act this way, although you do not.

This is my interpretation of pinta´s position.

User avatar
Ciaytee
Almost Inbred

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:15 pm


ZNB, Lynx´s post was for NB, not to you. NB has added nothing of value to this conversation. S/He has ignored every valid point we´ve made and is only interested in stirring the pot. Since NB knows s/he can´t justify the breeding, all it can do is act like a kindergartener. Can´t you just see it? It throws a rock, then sticks it´s fingers in it´s ears and and says, "Lalal! I can´t hear you!"

Also, it wasn´t actually Pinta who said that about the Christian interpretation. Pigpal is a poster here, but she´s off delivering the Hollister pigs and doesn´t have access to her computer. You may have met her. She´s the ´Jackie´ that helped drive the Piggebago. She´s at Pinta´s now, so she´s using her account to post.

But to defend PP, she said "far too many Christians", not ´all Christians´. And she´s right. Just as far too many Christians use the Bible as a justification for beating their kids, murdering abortion doctors, and denying homosexuals their rights. It´s not a criticism of the faith, but of the ways people use it to justify their unethical actions.

ZurgNBuzz

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:16 pm


Thanks purrie. I agree wth you. It was just the way it was sated in pinta´s post. I fet like pinta was saying that was how all Christians inerpretted that scripture, which in fact, as you stated only people who do not act in a Christ-like manner would ever use ht scripture, or treat their animals as property, and not as a living creature that deserves only th best care and love we can provide them. I apologize if I jumped at something I shouldn´t have.

ZurgNBuzz

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:22 pm


I do see Ciaytee. As I realized after reading purrie´s post. I probably jumped when I shouldn´t have. I truly apologize. But I wouldn´t call any person who uses scripture to advocate abuse as a Christian. I didn´t realize that lynx was directing her post at nb. I totally agree that nb has made no good points to this thread. No matter the cost any animal deserves the best of care, and to the best chance at a long healthy life. We don´t euthanize a human that has cancer so that they don´t needlessly suffer for months. I see now that I read more into the post than was there. Both pinta´s and lynx´s. Can you ever forgive me?  :D

Post Reply
180 posts