URGENT-CA-PHS Shelter (Bay Area)

nastybreeder

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:21 pm


Excellent post zurgnbuzz. Very eloquent and well reasoned.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:56 pm


Whatever Pinta´s personal theories (I´m sure she´s not the only one to come up with that particular one), it still comes back to why are you here?

Sit back and take a look through the eyes of a pet owner. These posts have all digressed but it still seems plain to me you only showed up to give Teresa a hard time (at least Jacque did). Your criticism doesn´t belong on public boards but instead in snarly emails to fellow complainers.

As to your comments regarding zurgnbuzz post being eloquent and well reasoned, I think not.

How about answering Purrie´s question concerning WHAT is your point in posting?

piggypie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 3:47 pm


pinta I have only your posts to judge whether I am more tolerant than you or not.

ZurgNBuzz

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 3:58 pm


No problem Lynx, I felt personally attacked on a matter that has no back bone. As I said, I didn´t post on the other things, that while I do not agree with them, were not an attack on me or my morals. And that is fine, since I´m not wanted here, simply because I stated my opinion (which was not hateful, just some points brought to the table) that´s fine. I am not a breeder. I am a Christian, and felt that bashing of a scripture and a group that had not even brought that scripture into this arguement, was not needed. If you think it wasn´t well reasoned, so be it. But neither was Pinta´s. I don´t see you chasing her away.

How did I show up to give Teresa a hard time?????? I adopted two of the Hollister pigs from this trip! My only point was that in that scripture, it is being said to care for the animals that are in your care. That you have dominion over. Sheesh. No where did I say Teresa´s efforts were wrong, or that breeders were in the right. I don´t disagree with breeding, generally, but in the case of cavies, where the population can boom so quickly, I do believe there is no NEED of breeders. I AGREE with you guys. Now, I won´t say I disagree with breeding, Because in some animals it´s not such a problem. I.E. horses.
I think your post was hasty, and you made assumptions about me that should not have been made.

I came to this site from the CG site, same as a lot of people I´m sure, to learn as much as I can about my cavies. I read this post as I had adopted two of the girls, and if you noticed have said nothing on the other points that others have handled well on their own. Just because NastyBreeder made a nice comment to my post, doesn´t mean I agree with s/he either. Don´t lump me in that group. I didn´t ask for his/her reply to my post. I just felt personally attacked in a round about way.

So, my point in posting was to make a point. I said my point, and would have left well enough alone, but then I had to respond to you. So, how about an answer for me? What was so wrong with my post, that wasn´t wrong with other posts? What did I imply that made you jump to so many conclusions?

purrie

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:10 pm


ZurgNBuzz, I too have known "Christians" who have used the scripture to say that we are allowed to treat animals as property rather than living creatures. Perhaps the issue with that statement is that some people who call themselves Christians do not truly act in a Christ-like manner, in this particular case toward animals. I think you yourself probably know people who act this way, although you do not.

This is my interpretation of pinta´s position.

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Ciaytee
Almost Inbred

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:15 pm


ZNB, Lynx´s post was for NB, not to you. NB has added nothing of value to this conversation. S/He has ignored every valid point we´ve made and is only interested in stirring the pot. Since NB knows s/he can´t justify the breeding, all it can do is act like a kindergartener. Can´t you just see it? It throws a rock, then sticks it´s fingers in it´s ears and and says, "Lalal! I can´t hear you!"

Also, it wasn´t actually Pinta who said that about the Christian interpretation. Pigpal is a poster here, but she´s off delivering the Hollister pigs and doesn´t have access to her computer. You may have met her. She´s the ´Jackie´ that helped drive the Piggebago. She´s at Pinta´s now, so she´s using her account to post.

But to defend PP, she said "far too many Christians", not ´all Christians´. And she´s right. Just as far too many Christians use the Bible as a justification for beating their kids, murdering abortion doctors, and denying homosexuals their rights. It´s not a criticism of the faith, but of the ways people use it to justify their unethical actions.

ZurgNBuzz

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:16 pm


Thanks purrie. I agree wth you. It was just the way it was sated in pinta´s post. I fet like pinta was saying that was how all Christians inerpretted that scripture, which in fact, as you stated only people who do not act in a Christ-like manner would ever use ht scripture, or treat their animals as property, and not as a living creature that deserves only th best care and love we can provide them. I apologize if I jumped at something I shouldn´t have.

ZurgNBuzz

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:22 pm


I do see Ciaytee. As I realized after reading purrie´s post. I probably jumped when I shouldn´t have. I truly apologize. But I wouldn´t call any person who uses scripture to advocate abuse as a Christian. I didn´t realize that lynx was directing her post at nb. I totally agree that nb has made no good points to this thread. No matter the cost any animal deserves the best of care, and to the best chance at a long healthy life. We don´t euthanize a human that has cancer so that they don´t needlessly suffer for months. I see now that I read more into the post than was there. Both pinta´s and lynx´s. Can you ever forgive me?  :D

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:01 pm


Ciaytee is right that those comments were not directed at you. I did, however, wonder where you came from and what baggage you brought -- it sometimes seems on controversial threads people drag out their friends (or make them up) to provide support. You just signed up today and I was wondering if you were here only to muddy the waters further.

And yes, it is Pigpal who made some of the comments (she delivered pigs to Pinta recently -- a new trip north to place several). I didn´t check the thread again to note that it was not Pinta posting.

Generally speaking, I tend to agree with Pigpal. What I often see is God being blamed or being thanked for all sorts of things. You can´t have him "taking care of evil" on one hand and ignoring it on the other. And the Bible has been used to justify the most deplorable behavior. This is not to say there aren´t Christians with good hearts who live good lives. But lumping Christians together as a group is a mistake -- there are so many interpretations of what a good Christian life is and whether or not one group or another is living it, not to mention the individuals within that group.

Pigpal´s main comment had to do with Jachqui´s statement that there is a higher being that takes care of everything. Why not just let that higher being take care of the murderers and thieves? Carry it to extremes and there would be no laws and no punishment on earth for the evils commited here. And they would be free to murder again.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:02 am


I can´t speak for what Jachqui meant by her statement. But as a Christian, I have a question.
Where in any of this is Christianity in question?

By "higher power", it could mean Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Muslem, Hindu, Christain Science, any of the religious beliefs. I find it strange Pigpal, that you immediately ranted on "Christians".
Perhaps that was due to the old Testament reference, and since I am not versed in the other religions, perhaps they do not have the same sort of charge in their Books. If that is the case, then ignore the next comments.

There are some people who profess to be Christians, but they do not represent the true meaning of Christ. I know of no TRUE CHRISTIANS who abuse or exploit animals or other humans. As the Bible explains, we have dominion over animals, meaning no other animal has dominion over us. It never says to abuse, exploit, or treat cruelly.
Just as their are people using the term Christian, and not being one or acting like one, there are also other religious factions who have misguided beliefs and ways of showing them. Flying planes into buildings under some mistaken belief that is the way to see God somehow comes to mind.

You said "unfortunately far too many Christians have used this to expoit animals". Really? Then I´m sorry for the "Christians" you have had the unfortunate opportunity to meet.

As for a higher power taking care of everything, I think that statement, in my opinion, simplifies too much the whole idea of God. In my opinion only, God does have supreme power over all. If he chooses to let us destroy ourselves, as seems to be the case, then so be it.
That in no way means he CAN"T change things. Just that, for His own reasons, He chooses not to. I can live with that.

There will be no agreement on this thread. There are rescuers who think all breeders are evil, and there are breeders who think that all rescuers are lunatic. There will be no happy medium. I would agree there are evil breeders and lunatic rescuers.

There are some people that would spend thousands of dollars on a sick pig. And others that won´t bother taking a pig to a vet.
I think the majority of people on this board fall somewhere in between. And given certain circumstances, I don´t think anyone should be critisized if their budget doesn´t allow them to spend hundreds on a sick animal.
There are good, loving, responsible pet owners on this board who would never consider spending hundreds of dollars on a sick pig. Just as there are others who would not think twice about it. It doesn´t make either one wrong. It just makes them different.

Everyone has a different opinion of what constitutes a "good" pet owner.
I think if you give the animal good food, good water, attention, play time, enough living area to be comfortable, clean housing and bedding, necessary veterinary care when the time comes, and compassion at the end, that should be enough.
I know really crappy breeders. I also know some really good and responsible ones. But my idea of responsible is not the same as is listed at Cavy Spirit.

I have read the "responsible breeders" site at Cavy Spirit. But to say that you will know what becomes of all your pigs, and all their progeny, is not practical. I know of rescues who screened mightily, and still lost pigs they placed to pregnancy, or attack from another family pet, or early loss of life from an undiagnosed illness. The most responsible breeder and the most dedicated rescuer cannot control what other people do. Period. All the screening and testing and promises and rules will still not prevent the unnecessary demise of some animals.

As a former breeder, I lived up to all of the list on responsible breeders except that last one. I sold some of my pigs at shows, to pet owners. I also sold some of my show pigs to other breeders who I considered good and responsible. Most still communicate with me to let me know how their pigs are doing. I tried to educate. I tried to find good homes for the pigs I placed. Usually, I succeeded. Sometimes, I failed.

I can say in all honesty I know of pet owned pigs who do not have as good a life as some of the breeders pigs I know. Some pet owners really suck.

And as for adequate cage space, says who? The Humane Society in Lacey told a breeder she could have no more than 4 pigs in a cage that was 18" by 24". Some of the rescuers here feel that 2x4 is adequate for a pig, and others feel more is necessary. Some of the most indulgent, loving, caring and knowledgable pig people on this board would not pass some of the rescuers guidelines. So who is to say how much space is enough?

We could go on and on about the discrepancies as there are many.

I think we should not lump all breeders, rescuers, Christians, or any other "group" into one slot. Like Lynx says, all of these groups are made up of individual people. Some great, some not-so-great.

Wow! Waaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than intended.

kleenmama
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:28 am


Eek! I tried to edit and apparently I took too long.
I wanted to add that I respect and admire Josephine more than I can say, and I have used her advice repeadedly. I mean absolutely no disrespect to her in the least for disagreeing with her breeding thread.
I have difficulties with seeing how it could work in a practical setting.

Also, I quit breeding not due to any high moral ground here. I quit because I´m a wimp. I lost three sows in 2 years due to breeding complications. To me, it was heartbreaking, and I just didn´t have what it takes to breed and show. I couldn´t stand that no matter how hard I tried, and how much I spent, and how much I cared for and doted on these pigs, some would still die. That is why I quit breeding. I´m just a pure wimp.

pinta

Post   » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:29 am


ZurgNBuzz - try to pay attention will ya? You skimmed more then the beginning of my supposed post and you couldn´t be bothered to read Ciaytee´s post. IT WASN´T MY POST. Pigpal was using my computer to post and signed her name as the writer of the post. I suggest before you join in a debate you have the courtesy to read ALL the words in a post.

pinta I have only your posts to judge whether I am more tolerant than you or not.

Sorry piggypie - you´re going to have to do better than that. If there are specific posts where I appear to be less tolerant than you(and the discussion here is revolving around multiculturism)I suggest you produce them. Otherwise you are indulging in the sleazy tactic of innuendo. I´ve had a few rounds of false accusations and slander and am frankly less than patient with airy fairy posts of no substance such as yours.

So produce these posts on which you have based your judgement that I am less tolerant than you.

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