"Questran/Food Mix & Carafate"

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Evangeline

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 12:34 am


My thoughts? Neglect.

pinta

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:18 am


Tiny, dark, misshapened turds indicate dehydration.

Reglan is a good treatment for bloat or motility problems. Sometimes subcue fluids can help if the cavy isn´t too far gone.

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ladyveg

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 9:28 am


Thank you, I have passed this info on to the lady who is taking care of the bloated baby sow. The turds from the three baby boars have become more the shape and size I´d expect. I just weighed the three boars, and they are 10 oz, 9 oz, and 9 oz. They will be 7 weeks old in two days.

I have to find out from Lori the weight on the bloated baby sow. Her physique was very strange. She had such narrow little shoulders but her belly pooched out quite far on both sides, like an extreme pear shape, or if a really skinny sow was pregnant. Her belly felt hard but the skin was not taut, there was still a little give so it wasn´t like she was blown up as a balloon.

imanut4u

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:06 am


Sounds like neglect to me too. You just never know what you´ll end up with when taking in dumps. 6 hours with no poops? Yikes!

It´s unbelievable how poorly some people treat their animals. I´m sure with a bath, good diet and time they will be fine, especially if they are showing "poop improvement" already.

Good luck!

Evangeline

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:43 am


Jesus! Some people!

These pigs are really tiny for their age. And it does sound like malnutrition and dehydration.

How are their coats? Their general appearance?
Last edited by Evangeline on Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nicole

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 12:55 pm


"The one with bloat is in with an adult sow with a naked belly. " "Tiny, dark, misshapened turds indicate dehydration." "6 hours with no poops" "These pigs are really tiny for their age. And it does sound like malnutrition and dehydration."

First, Ladyveg, thank you for taking them. Second, these statements completely baffle me. Actually, they really, really, confuse the hell out of me. I know this woman..She traveled the 16 hours here and spent a few nights at my house, with her pigs, a few months ago. They were well fed, well maintained and well watered. She didnt have the rescue pigs we are reffering to then, but, she did have a few others rescues as well as her own. Corresponding back and forth with her in email, talking with her on the phone, and seeing the way she took care of them, I was under the assumption that she took really good care of all of them. I cannot tell you how many times I would be on the phone with her and she would be ´feeding the pigs´ with them wheeping their heads off in the background..It seemed like almost *every* time talked to her she was feeding/watering/changing them or had just finished.. I dont get it. The babies are suffering because of neglect?? Malnutriton? Dehydration? That goes against everything she´s told me...I dont want to think that she´s lied to me.. Maybe I´m grasping at straws here but, is there no other explanation for their condition at all?

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:11 pm


Without a general history, it does sound from the information here that one of the legitimate causes is malnutrition or some sort of GI malfunction. The babies are at least 30% less than what they should weigh, so this has definitely been going on for some time.

Necropsies would have been nice and might have given some more clues. At the very least it could have possibly ruled out some sort of weird congenital problem, although congenital problems usually only affect one or two pups in a litter. I have seen a whole litter of lethals born to one mother at one time, but that is often the exception, rather than the rule.

Since there was no blood in the stool, was it also checked for parasites? The stool does sound as if there is some sort of problem with the GI motility, function, or load (amount of food, fluids, and fiber going through). I would certainly agree with the sulfa drug and anti-gas medications. I know that Carafate (sucralfate) is safe in cavies, but I have not used it. It is better and does a bit of a different function than active cultures, so I think it would be a good idea. It is often used in other animals with concurrent use of NSAIDS or other medications that can cause GIT ulceration.

I don´t have any experience of using Questran in cavies. It sounds as if the vet wants to cover all possible problems. I have also used Banamine (flunixin meglumine) at 2.5 mg/kg/24 hours for a maximum of three days. It is a powerful steroid and GI anti-inflammatory useful in horses for colic. I don´t know of any contradindications, though with the Carafate and Questran usage and Banamine is by Rx only.

I would certainly go with the Critical Care. Those pigs need nutrition. My opinion of Kaytee foods is about as good or worse than the vet´s opinion. A waste of money. I do not agree that the pigs were/are getting too many fresh feeds. I think that the more, the better unless there is diarrhea. Good quality greens, such as kale, spinach, wheatgrass, dandelion greens, etc. should be a main part of the diet daily. Oxbow foods have their stellar reputation for a reason. I have not seen any other cavy diet come close. I would put them on the Performance diet due to their age and condition.

I do not think multivitamins are safe or necessary in cavies as long as the basics are present.
Sometimes B and C vitamins are given, but that is all that should be given unless there is a specific medical reason to use another vitamin (with the supervision of a cavy knowledgeable vet). Toxicites are too easily induced in cavies.

Vitamin C products are not all equal. In cavies, it is probably a moot point, though since their requirements are so small in comparison to humans. Deficient or ill cavies should get about 50 mgs/day supplemented. I choose to get a currant flavored 100 mg chewable and cut it in half. My cavies clamor for more and I can usually get the ill ones to take it as a treat or in Critical Care (which also has good vitamin C stores). Some people have had good luck with suspensions from health supplement suppliers. Just like any vitamins, processing and storage as well as quality of the source are to be considered, but anything is better than none. Just use your good judgement. Opened bottles are probably not good for more than 6 months due to air depletion and light. Heat, chlorine, and moisture also affect vitamin C. These are some reasons why it is not a good idea to put vitamin C in the drinking water. There are also some health professionals that think various molecular structures of vitamin C or sources are more easily used by the body. I have not seen much research on cavies, but again, most products out there are more than reasonably good. I do not see how Oxbow´s X-tra C product would be warranted. I feel it is overpriced and made for human fancies. If it works for a person and their cavies like it, good. I think that one could go to a health food/vitamin store and make a similar purchase on a good product that costed a bit less for the quantity received.
Last edited by Josephine on Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:01 pm


Hello Everyone,

I am the lady who took the pigs to Rachel´s. I wanted to clarify a few things. I rescued those pigs from a breeder who put all her sows and boars together and let them have at it. Very bad situation. When I got them they were almost bald, I couldnt even tell on some what color they were. Most of them had terrible scabs from digging at themselves because of the mites. Thus, the reason for no hair on her belly, it is all finally coming back in. All the others´ fur has come back in. I am not making excuses, just explaining the situation.

As for the stain on Dee Dee´s belly, it is formula and Vitamin C. She wasnt nursing well, so I force fed her and some of the others that werent eating right. Why didnt I bathe her to get it off? I was afraid to bathe them, they were so tiny and ill, I didnt want to add to it by getting them in a bath. I totally forgot to mention it to Rachel, until I was on the road home.

I could go on forever, but I know I took care of them, I did everything I could for them. Now, if I were neglecting them, why would I carry them to the vet and spend nearly $300 as a precaution since one died of no apparent reason? I had no idea they had a GI issue, they eat so well now. I know they are very small, but they were born to malnourished, parasite ridden Moms. I got them on the 17th of December and they were born on the 22nd of Dec and the 25th, respectively, so that is not a lot of time to bulk them up, believe me I tried my best with them. And, if I were not caring for them, as a rescuer, why would I take them to a reputable rescuer such as Rachel? I wouldnt ask for help, and surely wouldnt ask another rescuer for help.

I hope you all can understand where I am coming from, and I will say, if I had read this and not known the situation I would probably think neglect too, but that is not the case, you are all more than welcome to come to my home anytime and see how well cared for they are. If you have any questions, please ask me.

Tori

imanut4u

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:52 pm


Oh, these are Tori´s pigs? Sorry, I had assumed these were the dumps at Animal Control we spoke about.

"I wouldnt ask for help, and surely wouldnt ask another rescuer for help."

Tori, that´s really not a good thing for a another rescue to read. When you get in over your head, and need help, it´s best to look for it.

Having taken in pigs from an overloaded rescue myself, I can say that I have seen first hand how easy it is to get over your head trying to help needy animals. I´ve seen pigs from a rescue in poor condition long after they should have been in good shape.

The ones I took in had mites, were thin, dirty and scruffy. They recovered in just a few short weeks of a balanced diet, clean conditions, adequate cage space and ivermectin.

This same situation also resulted in several pregnant sows delivering once they reached their new sanctuary, sows that should NOT have been pregnant when they left the rescue. Carelessness resulted in more pigs being born.

It´s hard to say no, but it´s harder to swallow the fact too many are difficult to properly care for. I sincerely hope you keep your numbers down now that you´ve lightened your load.

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 9:25 pm


It´s hard to say no, but it´s harder to swallow the fact too many are difficult to properly care for. I sincerely hope you keep your numbers down now that you´ve lightened your load.

Are you saying they received the poor care at my house? Because I had too many to care for? What? When I said I wouldnt ask another rescuer for help if I was mistreating them, I was meaning, why would I want someone to know I was neglecting them, if that was the case? Which it wasnt. If I didnt care about those pigs I wouldnt have carried them to the vet and spent all my time and money on them. I was totally overloaded when I had them, I know that, but that doesnt mean I didnt care for them to the best of my ability. I love those pigs as much as love the ones that are still here. No matter how tired I am or how burnt out, they still got veggies 3 times a day, clean cages, and hay, pellets and water throughout the day. I cant believe I have to explain myself, I wouldnt mistreat an animal for anything.

imanut4u

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 9:55 pm


Tori, as I explained, I didn´t realize these were your pigs. No need to be defensive. I´m sure you did do the best that you could.

I was sharing my view point on not asking for help --- I´m sorry if I misread what you meant. It appeared you would not ask anyone for help.

I was just expressing my hopes that you will keep your numbers down to a manageable amount. I know you are new to the rescue scene and it´s easy to get in too deep too fast.

I didn´t mean to offend you.

Some questions if you don´t mind -- with nine pigs it´s getting confusing. Trying to help Rachel get the ducks all in a row before heading off to the vet tomorrow.

To my understanding, the mother has been with you since December, what has the vet said about her? Any treatment at all? This is the sow on Similac? Why?

There were two litters correct? When were they born?

How large was each litter?
Did some passed away?
How many?

Which litter are the boys from?
And the sow?

You had told me that pups were deformed .... which litter? Are these the deformed pups or did they pass away?

Which pigs are on which meds?

Were the boys able to pass stool at your house? Were they normally formed?
There is concern with their stools and lack of on arrival, but it seems that is getting better already.

Anything else you´ve had done at the vet would be appreciated as well.

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ladyveg

Post   » Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:10 pm


I should post because it looks like there was some initial confusion, Heather and possibly others may have thought that these were pigs brought in from Animal Control and in that situation, the first thing you do think is neglect. I was trying to be as objective as possible in describing the pigs so that we could maybe get somewhere in figuring out what was causing babies to die suddenly and causing the problems that were happening.

Tori did call me tonight and tell me the yellow bellies were staining from Similac baby formula with Iron. I never used formula on my son, but I do know that that iron stuff stains. I´m wondering if the high iron content may have caused those tiny black misshapen turds? When my son is on an iron supplement his bowel movements become darker and he becomes constipated.

Tori also told me that the 3 small boars were only 2 oz at birth, could that explain how tiny they are now?

If a pig is bald, is it pretty normal to grow back in on the stomach last? I was worried about uterine cysts etc. because the fur on the rest of her came in so nicely.

Finally, those three babies are extremely wild and afraid of me. One took a pretty chunk out of my finger. Could this be that they are feeling pain somewhere or maybe just because of their mom being in such bad condition when pregnant?

I am hoping to get to the bottom of any physical problems with my vet, but it´s really confusing. Tori knows I couldn´t keep straight a lot of what she told me about all the different litters and who died.
---
And I forgot to mention that Tori brought along the Bactrim and Carafate, we are doing the Bactrim but not the Carafate. She also gave me Critical Care. I already had simethicone but am still looking for a dose.
Last edited by ladyveg on Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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