"Questran/Food Mix & Carafate"

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:44 am


I didnt use the CC then because I didnt have it and she wouldnt give it to me I asked. I didnt get it until Thursday, when she gave me the sulfatrim, questran, and carafate.

pinta

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:48 am


This was the same vet you took the babies to initially?

imanut4u

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:50 am


Tori,

I know Rachel offered to take these pigs from you, but simple fact, as I see it, a dump is a dump.

I asked Rachel if these pigs were the ones Nicole was asking about on this thread. She said yes and noted that she had not been aware of what was going on healthwise. When she asked you why you didnt tell her --- you said because she might say not to bring them. This is dishonest and unacceptable behavior imo. You could have helped Rachel help your rescues by providing her all the information you had on them.

Rachel did not "talk about you behind your back" She has not said anything unkind just shared with me concerns about these pigs, they are not in the best shape, not saying it´s your fault, but you had to realize some of this. Rachel deserved to know what was coming her way. I asked her a direct question about conditions and she gave me her opinion based on her dealings with the other rescue.

I apologize for "raking" but please be responsible and realize a sad fact of rescue is you can´t save them all. You do have to choose sometimes, and while it´s not easy, it´s necessary. Your heart is in the right place, but you need to think about the big picture.

Taking 9 to Rachel in one way or another means 9 already in Baraboo may have to wait their turn. Time they may not have..

I´ll bow out now, I´m sure Pinta will be much more helpful.

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:51 am


This was the same vet you took the babies to initially?


No. I took them to a different one at first. I dont want to get into all this on here agian. I know you are helping and I totally appreciate it, but I dont want to discuss it on here anymore. My email is NurseLuv22@aol.com

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:59 am


I´ll bow out now, I´m sure Pinta will be much more helpful.

sure you will now, look what you have done.

I asked her repeatedly BEFORE I TOOK THEM if she really wanted to take ALL OF THEM. She said, yes. I got there AND ASKED HER AGAIN and again was she still sure, I would have gladly taken them back home with me. And, not been mad at all. You should have stayed out of it to begin with, your mission was to slander me and make me look like crap and you succeeded, thank you. If your only concern was the pigs, you should have let Pinta ask from the beginning, because she could be more helpful, your own words, but your intent was to make me look bad.

I told her everything there was to tell on the phone before I brought them, and she could have said no. But, I know your next comeback will be she took them because she thought I wasnt caring for them properly.  :) Have a nice day, Heather, and God Bless you.

pinta

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:01 am


Sorry, I see no point in taking health matters to private email. How can anyone else learn if information isn´t public?

Pigs have mysteriously died(one or two), at least one (maybe more) is bloated, turds are screwy.

The only thing I can seize on that is out of the ordinary is the Similac with iron. Hopefully Josephine will know if any of the ingredients could have contributed to the condition of the pigs. If it wasn´t the Similac, it was something else. The sooner the cause is figured out, the sooner measures can be taken to help the pigs.
Last edited by pinta on Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:04 am


I took them to a different vet the first time, I called her that night and she was very nasty with me for calling her late at night, even after I told her the situation, so I decidec not to take them back to her. That is why I took them to the other exotics vet.

The last time the similac was given was in December, I still believe the health of the mothers is to blame for the health of the babies when they were born.

pinta

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:13 am


The health of the babies was that they weren´t feeding? Were there any other symptoms or signs of problems? How old were they when you took them to the vet the first time. (You may have mentioned it but I´m not sure where.)

Babies often lose a bit of weight in the first week before they start gaining.

Were the ones that died the same ones that were given Similac in December? How about the bloaty ones or the screwy turd ones. The same pigs?

God, am I ever confused.

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:18 am


I dont think they are any screwy turd ones, yes they didnt poop for 6 hours, but I swear they had normal poops before the car ride there, and yes they had small poops, but they are small pigs.

One of the pigs that died had formula and one didnt. They were over 3 weeks when I took them, I took the mothers when they were pregnant with them.

And, the bloated pig did have formula in December.

pinta

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 6:08 pm


I took
them to that same vet on Thurs and she acted as if she didnt remember that night I phoned her,
maybe she didnt, but she said then that they were still too young for the atb´s, but she wanted
them to try it anyway.



This was the same vet you took the babies to initially?

No. I took them to a different one at first.

I´m still confused. How many vets have seen these pigs? Did any of them tell you to use Similac with Iron? If a vet made this suggestion then the vet should be asked why. Could be the vet doesn´t know any better - if that´s the case then they should be told about Critical Care. But it appears the "Thurs" vet knows about CC. It also appears from the first sentence that this vet was the same one who saw them initially. But in the second sentence you state it wasn´t.

So I´m confused. What did I miss? Were there 3 vets?

User avatar
ladyveg

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:04 pm


Just a quick note. I was knocked offline (cable modem wasn´t communicating with my computer) right after my last post at 10:46 board time last night, so I didn´t even get to read from then on until now.

I want to make clear for Tori´s sake, as far as bringing pigs to me, that she did ask me many times whether I was absolutely sure I wanted to keep them. I did personally email her and offer to take a few off her hands when the first mention of the 30 pigs, inc. 15 pregnant sows, came up on the rescue list. She is absolutely right that I offered to take them, and also she did tell me about the babies dying before bringing them. She gave me several chances to back out which I didn´t want to do.


As for the rest of the non-medical comments, Tori, would you like me to post about it or would you prefer I email you? I´ll leave that up to you. It really didn´t start out as bad as you are taking it.
Last edited by ladyveg on Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:34 pm


As for the rest of the non-medical comments, Tori, would you like me to post about it or would you prefer I email you? I´ll leave that up to you. It really didn´t start out as bad as you are taking it.


I am sure it didnt Rachel, it started as a question for Pinta about the meds the vet gave me, because Nicole wasnt sure either. I called Nicole, even when we were on the outs, because of the hour, I could have called you, but it has always been my first instinct to call Nicole for any questions I had about the pigs. I would rather anything we need to talk about be in private email, it is between you and I, thank you for asking me.

Tori

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:36 pm


So I´m confused. What did I miss? Were there 3 vets?

No, 2 vets, one I took the the pigs too when I first got them, then the one who gave me the CC, Questran, Sulfatrim, and Carafate.

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:54 pm


Also, I did mention to the vet on the phone, that they had the formula and I told her when we went last week. She didnt comment on it, except to say, maybe the reason for the intestinal problems were because they didnt nurse from their mother enough.

pinta

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 8:19 pm


They get nutrition and antibodies from their mom. I doubt lack of nursing would cause intestinal problems since many an orphaned pig has been handraised successfully. Babies can usually eat some solid food within 24 hours of birth. I had to handraise/supplement 4 babies before and after their mom, Hazel, died (10 days after their birth). They barely nursed at all. It took her many days to even produce milk and it wasn´t enough to sustain 4 babies.

I took
them to that same vet on Thurs and she acted as if she didnt remember that night I phoned her,


Still confused - a typo?

Wheeks R Us

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 8:31 pm


I took
them to that same vet on Thurs and she acted as if she didnt remember that night I phoned her,

Still confused - a typo?

I am sorry Pinta, when I say same, I mean the same vet I phoned when they were just a few days old. The one who said they were to young for atb´s initially. They, meaning, the litter born on the 25th were eating veggies within about 24 hours of birth, that is why I didnt realize any problems with them, they were eating normally. The litter born on the 22nd was the ones I was most concerned about.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:53 pm


Pinta: Yes, that Similac stood out in my memory as well. It is certainly not balanced for cavies or even most other non-human animals. I would be seriously concerned about the iron causing possible problems (which could include the GIT) or many of the other minerals and added nutrients.

I have hand-reared pups that were less than 4 days old before and been very successful. I have also hand-reared pups that were less than a few hours old when orphaned (mom went toxic and couldn´t deliver the rest of litter and no vet would touch her soon enough). I don´t think they had any chance to nurse at all. They went on to live fairly normal lives. It is true that there are many trans-placental antibodies passed and I´m not advocating people intentionally orphan or raise cavy pups, but it can be done successfully even at early ages.

I have now come to the conclusion that hand-reared pups should get very little to NO milk replacement products at all. If possible, fostering the pups to another lactating sow is the best. I have never been so fortunate with mine. I get them on Critical Care, hay, veggies, and other solids ASAP. No aspiration risks and easy weaning (no "finger" imprinting). Healthy pigs. We just can´t duplicate cavy milk well enough even with the recipes and products available.
Kitten milk replacer or enriched goat´s milk have been used, but I have finally given up on them altogether for cavy orphan raising.
Last edited by Josephine on Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lisam

Post   » Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:53 pm


I completely agree with you, Josephine, about that. I have used kitten milk replacement in the past with mixed results. I feel that the milk of carnivores or humans, man made formula, and cow´s milk is just no good for these little babies.

pinta

Post   » Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:08 am


I had no info at the time and just went on instinct. I made a slurry of pellets, cranberry juice and yogurt. The babies ate it from the spoon eagerly for about 2 weeks and then weaned themselves. By 3 weeks they no longer had any interest. At the time I had never heard of kitten milk replacement.

User avatar
ladyveg

Post   » Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:30 am


Quick update. On 2/10 I listed their weights as 10, 9, and 9 oz. On 2/11 they were 11, 10, and 10, so they are starting to fill out.

I called Lori, but only her roommate was home so I couldn´t get as much detailed info as I wanted (she´s the person who has the baby with the bloated-looking belly). But she said they bathed the baby and although most of the yellow stuff came off, some of the stain was still in the fur. I do think that the problem with that baby must have been the Similac. Lori´s roommate told me the baby was doing really well, although she couldn´t give me any weights or anything.

So am I right to gather from the gist of these posts that perhaps it was the Similac that was causing problems for that litter? Some kind of iron overdose maybe, or too binding so it caused motility problems? I´m asking because I´m not sure what to recommend when I do get to talk to Lori. It sounds like the baby is doing better. I know I emailed her with some of the suggestions (Reglan, Critical Care, etc.) so maybe that´s all that´s needed.

The three boars here are doing great, as you can see they gained an ounce apiece in one day, so they´re growing. Their bellies already look rounder. I really do think it was the Similac that was the problems. Their poops are now not shriveled and black, but are the proper shape and color and have filled out as well.

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