Correct Lasix dosage

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melcvt00

Post   » Thu Nov 07, 2002 6:02 pm


Just out of strange curiosity....why could the vet have just dispensed some of the injectable Lasix to be given orally? Would've made things much easier.....

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Nov 07, 2002 8:53 pm


Ask for the Enacard. The Lasix removes excess lung fluid, but the Enacard lowers the blood pressure, relieving the heart of some of the work. Antoine is on Enacard alone since he has no fluid build-up. His murmur is congenital as well and is so prominent (even on meds) that he has jugular pulses and the murmur can be felt with your fingers on his chest. We've just passed the two year post diagnosis anniversary, and he is well.

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Cara

Post   » Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:30 am


Darn, I really hate this iBook, just erased my whole book long post.

Ok, first, E, I read that 1 cc = 1 ml and it just didn't register. I was worried and not reading as closely as I should have, that doesn't mean you still have to be a bitch and swear at me.

Mel, apparently the concentration was different from the Rx and she didn't have enough of the 10mg/ml to give me 60 ml. Besides, my pharmacy just happened to be out of it.

I somehow missed the vets call last evening even though I had my phone with me, when I tried to call back, they weren't answering even though the office had just closed. She said she'd call me at work today. I will certainly mention to Enacard then. She said Zipper's heart is just big, she and the other vet there couldn't hear a murmur. But I have a rapid heart rate that I take tiazac (a blood press. med) for so I understand how it would help Zipper. I do think when I gave her the baytril this am, her breathing seemed less labored. I gave the lasix at 4:15am and didn't much a of difference from when I went to bed (I also checked on her at 1am). She did have a rattle, just a few times and not loud while I was feeding her lettuce on my lap. I think it could be the lasix and baytril breaking up the fluid in her lungs. She is eating very well and seems more active though I seem to be constantly shoving a syringe in her mouth. She is also drinking well. She weighed 1.5 at the vets on Thurs. afternoon, last night she weighed 1.15lbs. I'm not too worried because she is eating and she hasn't ever weighed over a lb to begin with. Thank you, Lynx, Christal, PauloF, pinta, and Josephine for your help and Jill for the good luck. I really appreciate it. I know I tend to go crazy but I worry too much. I'd probably be a totally irrational woman if I ever had children and they'd live in a bubble.


Just one more question, are the side effects of lasix the same for pigs as they are for humans? Do I need to worry about side effects? Because it was filled at a human pharmacy I got this list of possible side effects and there were quite a few. Thanks.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:56 am


Yup. Side effects pretty much the same. The PU/PD (excess urination and thirst) is usually the most noticable to owners. It can also compromise kidney function, so make sure she is well hydrated and eating well. I like to do routine (every 6 months or so) bloodwork on Lasix animals in general. My vet even does labs every 3 months if they're not maintained. We usually start at 5-10 mg/kg/day for cavies and reduce if possible to the lowest maintaining dose. I suppose Pinta has more experience on crashing heart pigs, though. The Enacard is hard on the kidneys as well. The low blood pressure is good for the circulation, but the kidneys depend on some of that negative pressure to work. Antoine's values are all great, actually lower than when he was not medicated (which is good in his case).

I don't know about using injectable furosemide (Lasix) by mouth. I know that many drugs can be used that way, but not all. The normal concentration of injectible Lasix is 50 mg/ml (which is doable to measure for a cavy dose, but more difficult). I do believe it is quite light sensitive, so store it in a dark place and/or brown paper bag. Usually it is dispensed in an amber bottle to protect it.

User avatar
melcvt00

Post   » Fri Nov 08, 2002 9:07 am


For extremely small doses, we usually use an insulin syringe with the needle removed....10 units is 0.1ml. For drugs that are light sensitive, we put it in a red top blood tube (no additives), put it in a pill vial that it will fit in, then surround it with cotton to protect it from light and breakage. Although with the 60ml that was needed in this case, we would use one of our amber colored dropper bottles...the insulin syringe would still work well in it.

I wonder if there is information somewhere about whether or not injectable Lasix can be used orally or not?

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Cara

Post   » Fri Nov 08, 2002 9:15 am


Zipper is taking furosemide by mouth so it must be ok. It is in a red colored bottle but my vet nor the pharmacist said anything about keeping it from the light but it is in the cabinet anyway since the furance vent blows pretty well into my small kitchen. The pharmascist put a blue topped on it that I can stick the end of the syringe in and draw out the lasix quite easily.

As far as the symptoms, I should have been more specific, I know she will drink and pee more but I was curious about muscle cramps, dizziness and so forth. I've got to go but I'll type the rest of them later.

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Cara

Post   » Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:09 am


Blurred vision, lose of appetite, itching, upset stomach, and yellow skin. The lose of appetite worries me esp. since she's also on the baytril. But she's been good so far.

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Cara

Post   » Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:46 am


Vet said enacard wasn't needed at this point. Zipper is tolerating the lasix and baytril very well. She's maintaining her weight at 1.1 lbs. I see small improvements, breathing is still a bit labored but certainly better. I gave her many cc's of Pedialyte and she realized if she drank from her bottle I wouldn't jam more syringes into her mouth. She is drinking a lot. She's eating well. She runs from me when she sees me coming, she's found if she closes her teeth it makes it harder for me to get the syringe in and then she'll chew on it! Tomorrow makes 5 days she'll have been on the lasix.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Mon Nov 11, 2002 12:51 pm


I sure hope you found a solution.

pinta

Post   » Mon Nov 11, 2002 3:05 pm


I have 2 pigs that are on Fortekor (like Enacard) as a preventative measure since the family line has a bad history of heart disease. My vet feels Lasix is too heavy duty for these pigs unless they show signs of breathing problems.

Bloom crashed when we took her off her blood pressure meds.

As far as I know the Enacard is less risky than the Lasix and I would expect a vet to consider weaning off Lasix and maintaining on Enacard rather than the other way around.

Since Zipper's heart is enlarged it seem to make sense to give her a blood pressure med.

Josephine?

User avatar
Cara

Post   » Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:02 pm


Ok, she's talked of getting Zipper on the lowest dose of lasix as possible. I'll tell her this when we go back. I'm waiting to schedule her next app. because today only makes 5 days and I want to see if the lasix is indeed working as well as it can/should be. Vet said Zipper's breathing may never go back to normal. Vet did tell me to try and get Zipper on lasix every 12 hours instead of every 8 but she didn't tell me when or what to look for to drop it back. It's hard for me to make that decision because I don't want to stop it too soon if it needs more time to fully work. Now if Zipper's breathing remains labored, should she stay on the lasix AND add the enacard? Josephine said she does 6 month blood work on her pigs on lasix and that's what I will do for Zipper.

I just called her and she'll call me back. Thanks for the info, pinta.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:07 pm


Pinta, you have it right. Enacard is less stressful on the body than the Lasix. I would go for the Enacard over the Lasix if you can get away with it. Lasix should only be used when there is fluid building up where it shouldn't (edema). If a pig needs Lasix, I would do the Lasix and Enacard and slowly wean the pig off of the Lasix or get it down to the smallest dose possible. I think it is going to be very difficult to get the pig weaned off of Lasix if it isn't on a blood pressure med (like Enacard). Personally, I don't use Lasix at all in pigs unless they are dying. It has saved a couple of mine, but the Enacard is what keeps heart pigs maintained.

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Cara

Post   » Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:12 am


Ok, I'm going to keep updating until I feel like I know what to do and expect with a heart pig. I spoke with the vet last evening and she said to go ahead and start weaning Zipper back to 12 hours on the lasix. She said to make the next app. when Zipper's finished the baytril. I'll go for either this Sat or Tues. Zipper does have fluid build up in her lungs so I'm glad to know the lasix is exactly right for that. I do worry about her kidney function. How long on lasix before any damage would/could be caused? Also, pinta or Josephine, in your heart pigs does their breathing become more labored when they are excited or stressed? I always observe Zipper before I give her the lasix or baytril. This am when I gave her the baytril (not the lasix at 4:15 though) her breathing become very labored but then settled back down once she was back into the pool. Is something I can always expect or does this mean she still needs the lasix every 8 hours. The vet, as much as I like and trust her, was very vague on how to wean her down to 12 hours. I will be sure to ask for the Enacard when we go back to get her completely off the lasix.

pinta

Post   » Tue Nov 12, 2002 2:39 pm


Yeah, heart pigs get more laboured breathing when stressed.

We just monitor our heart pigs closely - if they start rattling stickily, it's time to up the Lasix. I have found with ours, it is more likely we've had to up the Lasix rather than reduce it.

But I do have 2 pigs on blood pressure meds only.

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Cara

Post   » Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:26 pm


Ok, with the pigs on the lasix how did you determine that they needed the lasix and not just enacard? If we wean Zipper off the lasix onto the enacard and she doesn't do as well do we just try to find the lowest dose of lasix to maintain her plus the enacard? I'm sorry for all the questions, just want to learn as much as possible before we go back to the vets.

pinta

Post   » Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:06 pm


The pigs on Lasix are on it because they collapsed from heart failure. The ones on Fortekor are on it because the family has a history of bad hearts and their hearts sounded vaguely suspicious to the vet. Only one pig from that family is not on heart meds. Her heart sounded really strong.

There are no rules. You have to go by trial and error.

Basically if the pig sounds like they always have a URI, they probably need Lasix to clear out the fluid.

Poppy doesn't have sticky lungs but seems to have swollen feet that get ulcerated if she isn't on Lasix. Her activity level was down on Fortekor alone. We are still trying to figure out what is best for her.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:46 pm


Yup. Trial and error.

My heart pig not only gets labored breathing when stressed, but his pink ears and feet get beet red. I know to back off then. It is kinda tricky judging how much stress he can take, but he has gotten used to the regular grooming and bathing (which he hates, but strutts his stuff when dry) and the blood draws. He also doesn't resist his pill. Just part of the routine, even when it doesn't taste great.

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Cara

Post   » Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:05 am


Well, I"m going to ask my headmaster if I can take her in now. Her breathing is worse again, not as bad as it was. Her watery eyes have cleared up and she's not rattling at all. In two days she's jumped from 1.1 lbs to 2.0lbs though. What side of the body is their stomach on? I wasn't sure if an x-ray was exactly like a picture or backwards? The left side of her body is sticking out more than the right. I'll definietley ask for the enacard and figure out what to do now. I'm really quite worried about her.

pinta

Post   » Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:41 am


She's almost doubled in weight in 2 days???? Off the top of my head I'd say she needs Reglan ASAP.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:10 pm


Not normal. Either there is a lot of excess gas or fluid (ascites) in the abdomen. Xrays could tell you that. It sounds as if she might need Reglan or more Lasix, but you need to know what the extra stuff is. Usually gas doesn't add that much to the weight, but it could be the problem.

Xrays are direct imprints. The positioning of the organs depends on how the animal was placed on the plate for xrays. They shoot on the side, from the abdomen to the back, or from the back to the abdomen. In a normal xray, the stomach is found on the left side of the body. That is its normal position in the abdominal cavity.

From your description either the stomach is filled with gas and/or there is fluid pushing the stomach out in the abdomen. The pig should at the very least get Lasix, Enacard, and Reglan. Maybe O2 therapy if the pig is not oxygenating well. Animals in cardiac failure have a tendency to gulp air into their stomachs and their abdomen fills with fluid due to poor cardiac output.

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